Jews in Egypt?

Last night, a friend of mine offered me a taste of a traditional passover dish, the name of which escapes me, and said it was symbolic of the motar the Jews used to build the pyramids. Being a pendant, I explained that the Jews didn’t build the pyramids, native Egyptians did, mostly farmers during the flood season.

So, what were the Hebrews doing in Egypt? How many were there and when did they arrive and leave? Did they all leave? Was their loss a blow to the Egyptian economy? Where in the county were they? Were they spread out in several cities, or did they have a more or less single clump in one place?

I’ve checked Exodus, but the information there is rather vague. Basically, it says they were there and that they were slaves. I’m willing to believe that, mostly because there’s little reason to lie on that count, but I want more. I’m interested in other sources, archeological, Egyptian, and non-Biblical Hebrew sources. What can you tell me?

http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_035b.html

As Cecil says, there is no archaeological evidence beyond the Bible. The absence of evidence is not, however, indicative: the Egyptians, like most ancient peoples, did not record their defeats, only their triumphs.

There is certainly evidence of forced labor being used for buildings. The Bible doesn’t say that the Israelites built pyramids, by the way, but that they built the cities of Pithom and Raamses. Archaeologists have found the (presumed) ruins of both cities – remember that things like spelling were not standardized, and the Egyptians and Hebrews used very different languages, so there’s always some uncertainty.

TFor what they were doing in Egypt, the Biblical account is probably correct – they probably came during a famine. How many there were at first, the bible sets at 70. When they left, probably around 1250 BC, it’s not sure how many there were – the numbers in the Biblical account (600,000 males) seem highly improbable, and probably had some symbolic significance that is lost to us – e.g., perhaps “hundred thousand” was a literary or poetic device meaning “many” (or “more than I can count in a few hours.”)short period."

Did they all leave? We don’t know. Probably some stayed, more comfortable with slavery than with freedom. Happens.

Where in Egypt did they live? The biblical account puts them in the area called Goshen; there is no archaeological evidence to support or disprove that.

The dish that you had was called “kharoset.” It’s usually made of apples, wine, cinnamon, and nuts, but can include dates and various other ingredients. Typically, the ingredients are all fruits and veggies mentioned in the Song of Solomon.

I can’t resist:

So: You were just kind of hanging around?? :slight_smile:

There is so little real history of the Jews in Egypt outside the Torah that in A Short History of the Jewish People, Raymond P. Scheindlin doesn’t even a whole paragraph to say.

[quote]
The earliest definite reference to the Israelites outside the Bible is an Eqyptian inscription dating from about 1220 B.C.E.

How did I hit Submit???

There is so little real history of the Jews in Egypt outside the Torah that in A Short History of the Jewish People, Raymond P. Scheindlin doesn’t even a whole paragraph to say.

There’s no archeological/historical evidences supporting the exodus account. No mention of Moses, no mention of numerous Hebrews building towns, no mention of the plagues, no mention of the drowning of an army, etc…Beside, the number of Hebrws fleeing Egypt mentionned in the bible is totally unbelievable : it would be the equivalent of the whole estimated population living in the Nile delta at his time.
Of course, it doesn’t mean that there couldn’t have been some Hebrews living in Egypt, being enslaved or something equivalent, etc… There aren’t records for every little thing that could have happened in Egypt.

Assuming that the bible story is based on some true original event (which could be possible…or even likely, since the account survived until today and was considered by the Hebrews as a major, and even founding, event), my take would be that some little group of Hebrews who were unhappy with something in Egypt fled this country in some heroic or noticeable way and that the tale was told from generation to generation in the tribe founded by the original heroes, or to which they belonged, was way exagerated and considered as a founding event, spread amongst the other Hebrew tribes when they began to unify and eventually was recorded in the Bible much later.

Now, as for the Hebrews and Egypt (the little I know about it) :

-In the area around Egypt lived various nomadic tribes, which were at time very annoying, or at other times could at the contrary would prove useful. The Hebrews are likely to have been in close contact with Egypt which was by far the single most powerful nation in the area. There certainly was at various times people from these tribes settling in Egypt, or fighting for the Egyptians, or working for them (and of course occasionnally raiding them).

-There are mentions of nomads coming from the east of Egypt who were allowed in time of drought to come in the border areas of the country in order for their herds to drink/graze. Once again the Hebrews could have been amongst them.
-There’s a single mention of a people called “Habiru” living I can’t exactly remember where, but roughly in the southern part of what is now Israel, IIRC. It’s generally assumed that it refers to the Hebrews and that is the very first mention of them in recorded history. So, at some point, the Egyptians knew there were such a people living around and had contact with them.
-In much latter times (much latter by comparison with the usual dates given for the Exodus), there are records of the presence of the Hebrews in Egyptia, in particular serving as soldiers/mercenaries. For instance Hebraic people garrisoned in Egypt asked the temple in Jerusalem whether they could build a shrine and worship there (incidentally, they asked also questions about how they should worship some other deities than YHWH, which prove the Hebrew weren’t that monotheistic at this time)

An important point to note is that there are many hundreds of pyramids in Egypt. The usual practice is to assume that the pyramids of Giza are those referred to.

David Rohl has written two quite interesting books about Old Testament events - in “Test of Time” he examines the potential archaeological evidence for Moses and co. in Egypt. Whether you agree with his general conclusions or not, it does make for quite interesting reading.

It’s especially gratifying that he keeps to the archaeology, and is clear when he’s in the realm of conjecture - not the pushy Biblical -Arachaeologist at all.

Since the Bible has no reference to the Israelites building any pyramids at all, and the ones at Giza are a full thousand years older than any accepted biblical chronology, what would be the point of trying to make the connection?