I’d like to go ahead and clarify that I don’t think this is a good thing the Mormons are doing. It’s stupid, arrogant, offensive, and pointless. I only think that in the end, it makes no difference and doesn’t hurt anybody. The people who care have a right to care, but there are way more important things in life. “Sticks and stones can break my bones, but what some idiot writes in a secret book about my long dead relatives will never hurt me.” That is pretty much my position.
This is possibly one of the most misunderstood aspects of LDS doctrine. It stems from several core beliefs:
[ul]
[li]God loves ALL of his children and would like them all to return to Him.[/li][li]Baptism, by properly constituted authority, is an essential ordinance for salvation. (See John 3:3-5)[/li][li]Many people have died without the opportunity to hear and understand the gospel or to be baptized while on earth.[/li][li]These people will be taught the gospel in the afterlife, and will have the opportunity to either accept it or reject it.[/li][QUOTE=I Peter 4:6]
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
[/QUOTE]
[li]Baptism is a “physical” ordinance, and can only be performed while on earth.[/li][li]People on earth can be baptized by “proxy” on behalf of dead people[/li][li]If the dead people reject the baptism, it is of no effect, and we are not “forcing” anyone to become Mormons.[/li][/ul]
There is evidence that this principle of baptism for the dead was practiced even by the early Christians. In the middle of a discourse on the resurrection, Paul makes passing reference to this practice as an argument in favor of the resurrection.
Wow. 2,000 years and we still can’t agree on why they’re doing it…
But, see, it is very hurtful to Jewish people and to other people who are convinced, with great justification, that their dead relatives, leaders, and co-religionists would not want it done. It is disrespectful to the memory of the dead, and very painful to the living. So while it may be your opinion that “there are way more important things in life,” others might well feel differently. Indeed, you might feel differently if your relatives had died for a faith that the Mormons were disrespecting after their death.
FATBALDGUY, the LDS may believe that baptism is an essential ordinance for salvation, but Jewish people do not. Especially in the case of people who died because they were Jews, it is presumptuous and offensive for the LDS to take it upon itself to substitute its judgment for that of the deceased.
How would Mormons feel if the shoe was on the other foot? How would a devout Mormon feel if the Jews instituted a ceremony whereby a Jew could, on the dead Mormon’s behalf, repudiate the teachings of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon and essentially acknowledge that the LDS faith is erroneous? “On behalf of Rebecca Smith, I, Leah Levi, hereby acknowledge that Joseph Smith was a charlatan and Jesus Christ was not the son of God.” Heck, the Jews say, don’t sweat it – you can disavow this repudiation ceremony if you want! But we’ll do it for you anyway! How is it possible to not see the problem with this?
No one should be allowed to do “for” a second person something that the second person would not want done.
Nowhere did I say anything about substituting my/our judgement for the deceased, or anything about taking away their right to choose.
Try to look at it from this perspective. There are two possible scenarios here.
[ol]
[li]The LDS belief is wrong. In this case, we are wasting time and effort that will not effect your great-grandpa one way or the other. Any baptisms or other ordinances that we do are totally worthless, and nobody in heaven even cares about it.[/li][li]The LDS belief is correct. Perhaps great-grandpappy gets to the “Spirit World” and says, “Gee, maybe I was wrong after all.” In this case, he will be glad that someone on earth cares enough to allow him to receive salvation.[/li][/ol]
Believe me, we’re not trying to offend anyone’s sensibilities, or to insult their ancestors in any way.
You misunderstand the basis of my objection. I’m not saying you think people don’t care, I’m saying that it doesn’t lie in your mouth (or mine) to decide whether they “shouldn’t care” because it is “too trivial to worry about” and the offensive practice is “silly”.
I may think that the customs or beliefs of others - Mormons or Jews - are “trivial” and/or “silly”, but that is not a good excuse for not respecting them. Many people have very strong beliefs about the treatment of their ancestors. I don’t myself share those beliefs, but I think it is not tactful or respectful to make light of them, let alone directly insult them by attempting to appropriate them for an entirely different faith.
I believe that you (meaning here the Mormon Church) are not trying to offend anyone.
Nevertheless, people are now telling you that you are, inadvertantly, giving offence.
Would it not be the case that to proceed with this plan in full knowledge that it is offensive would not be a good idea, whatever the theological justification? What was not intentionally offensive conduct becomes so when one persists in it despite notice.
I love this – the Jews and the Mormons battling it out in the afterlife for possession of the immortal soul.
Malthus, I accept your distinction.
How would one know?
Let’s try an analogy here. Assume that on a far off island there is a buried treasure. Enough to make one fabulously wealthy. Enough for everyone in the world to have a share, if they want it. It’s not out in plain sight, and you need a map to find it. There are dozens, maybe even hundreds, of maps that claim to lead to the treasure, but only one of them is the real map.
The proponents of the various maps all think of each other as liars and frauds, and are convinced that their map is the right one.
John arrives on the island with his map in his hand, and discovers that the landmarks on his map aren’t even close to what he sees on the island. Sam is standing there on the shore, and offers to let John have a copy of the real map.
All of John’s friends and relatives back on the mainland are convinced that Sam and his ilk are a bunch of rotten scoundrels, and won’t have anything to do with their kind.
Is it wrong for Sam to offer his map to John? Would it be ethical for Sam to withhold the map because John’s friends are convinced it’s the wrong one?
[QUOTE=FatBaldGuy]
Nowhere did I say anything about substituting my/our judgement for the deceased, or anything about taking away their right to choose.
Try to look at it from this perspective. There are two possible scenarios here.
[ol]
[li]The LDS belief is wrong. In this case, we are wasting time and effort that will not effect your great-grandpa one way or the other. Any baptisms or other ordinances that we do are totally worthless, and nobody in heaven even cares about it.[/li][li]The LDS belief is correct. Perhaps great-grandpappy gets to the “Spirit World” and says, “Gee, maybe I was wrong after all.” In this case, he will be glad that someone on earth cares enough to allow him to receive salvation.[/li][/ol]
How about the case where a very religious family whose child is a friend of a Jewish or atheist kid, decides to arrange a baptism for the young kid while he is at their house supposedly playing? You could argue that if you are wrong the baptism won’t mean anything, the kid could reject it later, and that you may be saving his soul.
If someone had tried to do that to my kid, and I found out about it, I’d baptise them with cement galoshes.
You may not be trying, but you are succeeding very well. My ancestors, at great personal risk, rejected Christianity. I’m sure you are very sincere in your belief, but I think it is a pile. My daughter had a lot of LDS friends, and I made a special effort to never question their faith in front of them. You could offer me and my ancestors the same courtesy.
You religionists are going to turn me into Der Trihs irf you’re not careful.
And why are the ads on this page “Look Sexy Naked”, “2006 Video Music Awards”, “Jennifer Love Hewitt” and “Elisha Cuthbert Ringtone”???
[QUOTE=Voyager]
Voyager, I agree with you on this. And I don’t think you will find anyone in the LDS, or most other churches, who would sanction a practice like this. In fact it is a policy in our church that anyone under the age of 18 must have parental consent before we will allow them to be baptized.
In the case of baptism for the dead, it is a totally different story. We don’t go down to the graveyard and dig up corpses to be buried. We don’t say “John Doe is a Mormon now, and there’s nothing you can do about it.”
Is it really any different from someone going into their church and praying for the soul of someone of a different faith? Is this also considered offensive?
corpses to be baptized :smack:
I think few would be offended by Mormons praying for the souls of their ancestors. If it is “not different”, why not simply do that instead? 
Assume that nobody knows if the treasure actually exists, and that maybe John is tired of people offering him maps and shovels when he’s pretty sure there is nothing out there but sand. Maybe John has other priorities and finds their fascination with the treasure, and the efforts to get everyone else to join the search, to be a little crass. Perhaps if you look at it that way, you’ll see where we’re coming from.
The bottom line is that, while I understand that many people of faith feel that they’re just trying to help, and that some of them feel ethically obligated to “help,” that the entire attitude is really presumptuous. Although the baptism procedure is meaningless, the presumptuousness and arrogance are very off-putting. As several posters have already said, with Holocaust victims, you’re already talking about people who were murdered for having the wrong religion. The idea that such people need to be proselytized to after they’ve suffered and died for that religion is offensive.
I note here that other religions have beliefs that I find just as ridiculous. My understanding is that, according to Islam, all people are born Muslims and most are just not raised properly.
See, this is the kinda stupid stuff that buying into Great Sky Fairies gets you into …
The offensive part is not the dipping a kid into water. No one would mind if a kid who got dirty got a bath. What we do mind is not respecting the wishes of the person when alive, and the wishes of the person’s descendants. Praying for someone is not the same - it is about the beliefs of the person praying, not the person prayed for.
I can see you don’t get it - I suppose it has been too long since you people were oppressed. But I assure you my ancestors knew all about Christianity, just like the sheep know all about the wolves.
or
- Not only is the LDS belief wrong, but the gods of the afterlife (being different gods than any currently worshipped god here on earth) are deeply sensitive to the fact that still, nobody on earth (and about 7 other equally backward planets in their jurisdiction) have correctly translated the inspired scripture and thus reject all souls that have been tainted with any of the false religions. Those souls that have not been tainted are left in the waiting room until they figure it out on their own.
John takes a look at Sam’s map, and sees it is even further off than his. Sam says, "but you see this tree is really a building, and this river is a road, if you displace it by 200 meters, and the outline of the shore is exact if you go back in time 2,000 years.
Meanwhile Fred walks up. John and Sam both offer their maps and their explanations of why they are the true map, even if they don’t match reality.
Fred looks at them, laughs, and says he had an extensive airborne mapping done of the entire island, looking for a mass of metal the size of the supposed treasure, found none, and both of them and all the other map holders can bloody well bugger off.
He will sell them shoves, a sucker being born every minute and all.
Moral: Every map holder thinks they have the true map, but it is always treasure tomorrow, never treasure today.