I simply listed their government as one of the reasons they have US support. Just because they get a lot of support from the US doesn’t mean they don’t have moral authority. I know you didn’t say anything like that but as long as we’re responding to things others didn’t say…
Marc
How about Hadrians Wall or that big wall they built in China? These are walls to keep people out not to keep them in. There’s a big difference I think.
Marc
That depends on where you build it.
Arafat seems to be the choice of the palestinians… even if Sharon doesnt like him. Israel can’t keep terrorists from operating in their country… so why should the Palestinian Authority be able to in a miracle be able to do so perfectly ?
Still doesnt change the Hamas kills Israelis… Israel kills Palestinians formula. Arafat isn’t doing the killing directly. Sharon is.
Hamas retaliates... Israel retaliates. Same thing. Both kill civilians and property. Both disregard the UN. Both want to destroy the other. I think they are playing the same game with different tools. Please point out relevant differences of what they are doing... not what they are. Both are wrong...
As for wanting peace… the population on both sides want peace. Its natural. Even if they don’t beleive its possible. Both sides won’t accept a lopsided peace agreement either… both sides are pushing to get their lopsided peace agreement. Both Wrong… but as leaders go… Sharon and Arafat are the ones that don’t want peace in fact… as their leadership would be dispensed soon after. What is striking is the US asking for the deposition and exile of Arafat only… take Sharon down too I say… then there might be a chance of peace.
Hamas and Israel never make a real effort to avoid confrontation... any attack is an excuse to retaliate out of proportion. So both have used any excuse to throw away peace initiatives.Ok a reasonable comparison also… which indicates Israel doesn’t want to negotiate at all with the barbarians beyond the wall. Both walls lie now in ruins… never having effectively held back the barbarians forever. In fact the Mongols took over China.
I understand thou that Palestinians are the cheap labour of Israel... which means Palestinians will be ever present in Israel proper... so the wall is a partial solution at best ?I don’t like to get into GD anymore, because people go around and around and I have better things to do, but I can’t let this stand. Sure, build the wall on the green line. This is going to prevent terrorists from lobbing ammunition over the line. "Hey, we can’t shoot this from this side of the line. Don’t you see, it would have to go over the wall (actually a fence in most places).
The occupied lands were initially in isolated, deserted areas, but more recently have become closer to populated areas. However, Israel has never placed a settlement where Arabs live. Let’s step back and look at the whole picture. The Arab countries have attacked Israel half a dozen times. At its narrowest, Israel is only six miles wide. If it weren’t for the occupied lands, the Arabs may have defeated Israel in 1973, the Yom Kippur war, which came as a surprise to Israel since it occured on their High Holiday.
Granted that it may not be “right” or against the Geneva Convention to occupy foreign soil, but is it right for such a small country to be repeatedly attacked by its neighbors? I think in the totality of the situation, Israel really had to occupy more territory, “right” or not. When it comes to UN General Assembly voting, it is always pro-Arab since there are so many pro-Arab countries represented. It is always condemning Israel action without also condemning Arab action.
**
I guess because the PA should be able to exert some control over their own people. If they’re unwilling or unable to do so then what’s to be gained by negotiations?
**
Oh yeah, Arafat’s hands are clean. I really love how you put this solidly on Sharon.
**
Who cares what the UN has to say? They’re not the ones having their homes bulldozed or their pizza parlours bombed. As for the difference between the two, Hamas specfically goes out of its way to kill civilians. At least Israel makes an effort to go after the bad guys.
**
So now Arafat is just as wrong as Sharon but Sharon is still the only one doing the killing, I’m confused. When did the United States ask for the deposition and exile of Arafat? I thought Israel was talking about exiling him and the United States thought that was a bad idea.
So now the blame is on both and not just Israel? By the way you never answer the question. What wars has the United States fought on behalf of Israel? Or do you admit we haven’t fought any of their wars?
Marc
:dubious:
I will just note as “interesting” how quickly a thread about whether or not Jews rule the world degenerates into a discussion about the comparative benefits of Sharon and Arafat, and move along.
[For the record, Jews do rule the world. Well, this Jew does anyway. So do what I tell you, peons! ;j ]
It should be noted that the original poster stated, quite plainly, in another recent thread that he buys the whole “Jews rule the world” screed 100%, hook, line, and sinker.
He’s a racist, pure and simple.
If he thinks that Jews rule the world, then he is not a racist. He may be ignorant, but not a racist.
He needs to think that Jews are second class in order to be a racist.
Apart from the fact that Jews are not a race…
Well, the best lie is one with a kernel of truth. Jews don’t rule they world, nor the United States, but there is a very vigorous, well-organized and powerful Jewish-American lobby devoted to keeping the U.S. on the side of Israel in international affairs. And they are effectively allied with Christian fundamentalists who want to protect Israel so it can play its expected role in the coming End Times. And, of course, both sets are allied with the neoconservative warhawks, many of whose leading intellectuals are Jewish, and many of whom are former '60s radicals who migrated from the far left to the far right. Strange bedfellows! Commentator Michael Lind, whom no one has ever accused of bigotry so far as I know, has written several articles about this:
“The Israel Lobby,” Prospect, April 1, 2002, http://www.newamerica.net/index.cfm?pg=article&pubID=779.
“World History and the Texan Mind of George W. Bush,” The Globalist, April 6, 2002, http://www.newamerica.net/index.cfm?pg=article&pubID=809.
“Israel is not America’s Greatest Ally,” Newsweek, April 8, 2002, http://www.newamerica.net/index.cfm?pg=article&pubID=795.
“Israel Lobby Part 3,” Prospect, October 1, 2002, http://www.newamerica.net/index.cfm?pg=article&pubID=989.
Someone answer me this: Why is Israel so important to American Jews? It’s not their country! But in my experience, most American Jews will side with the Israelis as against the Palestinians no matter what the circumstances and no matter how outrageously Israel is behaving. Most, but not all. I knew a Jewish pro-Palestinian activist once – and death threats were a routine part of his life.
Just maybe it has something to do with how 60 - 70 years ago Jews trying to flee Germany were refused by almost every country in the world, including the United States?
Someone answer me this: Why is Israel so important to American Jews? It’s not their country! But in my experience, most American Jews will side with the Israelis as against the Palestinians no matter what the circumstances and no matter how outrageously Israel is behaving. Most, but not all. I knew a Jewish pro-Palestinian activist once – and death threats were a routine part of his life. **
[/QUOTE]
Considering the context of this thread (i.e., that many still believe that “Jews run the world” and have to be “defeated”), does “somewhat justified paranoia” sound like a reason to you?
The events of the '30s and '40s convinced many Jews that the only way to ensure their safety lay in there being, somewhere, a country and an army of their own.
Whether this idea is justified, or a good one even if justified, is a different issue. But surely Jews have, historically and currently, had reason for fear.
:smack:
CHIP Bok.
And Malthus, good point. That’s what I heard too when I was growing up; my largely Irish neighborhood was also a little leery of the treatment of Palestinians, given their own history. But the Holocaust was so enormous (two of my teachers were survivors, one with a tattoo on her arm) that I could understand the Zionist ideal, even while not applauding everything that they do.
The Irish comparison is a good one. Look at how Ireland achieved its independence from Britain in the 1920s (the actions of the IRA’s more recent incarnation notwithstanding). They killed representatives of the British government only, not civilians. They documented real instances of atrocities against civilians, instead of making them up. They published articles designed to appeal to the principles of the average British citizen and force the British government to bend to the popular will, instead of trying to kill those citizens and denouncing them as baby-eating tools of the devil. If the Palestinian leadership would take a hint, they might actually achieve something besides fattening Arafat’s wallet.
What does a Zionist say after sex?
“Was it good for the Jews?”
I would like to add my request to other posters asking if we can please keep the Israeli debate separate from the Judaism debate.
Debates about Israeli policies are rational things to have with many reasonable arguments on either side. Many Jews strongly disagree with Israeli policy, and some reject Political Zionism altogether. This is a subject about which reasonable people can disagree.
The OP seemed to have nothing to do with Israel per se, but was re-hashing warmed over anti-semitic hate propganda. there is no real response to this, not outside the Pit anyway.
Actually the Zionist movement began in the 19th C. The Jews have been oppressed by different nations many times throughout its history: Spain, Russia, etc. Leading Jews in the 19th C thought about America as a safe haven, but it was rejected due to the experience Jews have experienced in other countries. The only safe haven, they determined, was a nation of their own. Hence, there were two great migrations in the 1890s to Israel, and Jews have occupied that land for many years. Much of that land they had to till and irrigate since it was desert. Incidentally, they bought the lands from the owners, private in some cases, but Egypt in many cases since Egypt claimed ownership. So the idea of Zionism predates Hitler by many years.