Is 2000 to 2400 fps normally considered low to medium velocity?
You mentioned earlier that it is generally accepted, or not in dispute, that this round was not capable of doing said damage to Kennedy’s head. I’m pretty darn familiar with the JFK arguments, and I haven’t even come across this one before. Can you provide some backup cites from relevant experts?
So if a firearms expert who had fired both rifles himself was the first to the scene, and had identified the rifle as a Mauser, that might be significant. As it is, the police came across the rifle in their search and mis-identified the Carcano as the much more common Mauser. And they look very much alike. Further, the recovery was filmed by a newsreporter contemporaneously, and his film confirms that it was the Carcano.
It’s the nature of the bullet used by Oswald. A heavy metal jacketed bullet will remain intact because of the thicker jacket. Thin wall jacketed bullets do not. If you know someone who collects guns go out on a firing range and compare the results of a thin-wall .225 (M-16) and something comparable to the thick walled 6.5 mm from a Mannlicher-Carcano. The bullets behave quite differently on liquid filled objects such as a gallon milk jug.
I disagree that an exit wound (from a shock wave) need not be centered. The laws of physics dictates that it should continue in the direction it started. I agree that weaker material in the skull will give way first but that should also apply to the left side of the skull which was more in line with Oswald’s shot.
I see no reason to wait until 2017 for the release of the remaining documents from the Warren Commision.
Kennedy’s face was looking down and to the left when the fatal shot hit. The shot was off-center, entering in the back of his head, exiting somewhere above and behind the right temple. The crack of the bullet impact shattered the skull more on that side, and the fluid shock blew the material out, resulting in an exit wound that spanned the bullet’s entry and exit points, and most of the head in-between. The bullet also shattered somewhat on impact (find me a cite that says it couldn’t), some pieces were left in, most exited. One may have chipped concrete that hit James Teague.
Yes, but if you take a dummy head and line up the shot (based on frame 312) it’s nowhere near the line of site Oswald had. It looks like a ground level shot and to the left of Oswald.
Cite? I’ve seen computer models of both shots and they line up perfectly. What are you basing this on?
-XT
So you’ve abandoned your assertion that the exit wound has to be centered around the place where the bullet exited? Now we’re just discussing a) whether Oswald’s lair could line up, and b) whether the bullets he was using could shatter?
That one frame of low resolution film has nowhere near the data necessary to construct such a test with any accuracy at all.
look at Kennedy’s position in frame 312. The exit wound is at a right angle to Oswald’s line of shot.
sigh Not again. I’m kind of looking for more objective proof. How about show me a credible computer model detailing why the shot HAS to be from ground level…or why LHO’s firing position at the window is impossible to have caused the wound inflicted. Something like that. Don’t ask me to look at a purely subjective video frame…and a blury and distorted one at that.
-XT
Yes, that’s mostly correct, except calling it nothing but “exit wound” is an over-simplification. The chunk of skull that was blown out was at a right angle to the bullet path - how about that?
Correct.
The president’s skull was obliterated in the right occipital parietal region and although the remainder of his head was somewhat intact, the skull itself was shattered throughout. Thus the Warren Commission’s findings in regards had to respect that the massive level of trauma was the result of a high-velocity missile. I’m at work so I cannot quote directly from the Warren Report, but I can provide cites later for those of you that don’t believe me.
Also in the x-rays, there is a large cluster of metallic debris (bits of the exploded round) that were forced throughout the skull. This debris is absolutely not the by-product of a full metal jacketed round (thus the debris field) as this type of ammunition does not explode on impact. Even if you dispute this the axis of the debris still in JFK’s head at the time of the x-ray deeply suggests a shot from the front. You shouldn’t have to be a board certified radiation oncologist to pick up on that.
Here is a bit for starters from firearms expert Robert Frazier explaining to the commission that the Carcano rifle was a LOW-VELOCITY weapon:
Which does nothing to support your claim that a LOW-VELOCITY weapon could not cause the wounds inflicted on the President.
Yes, there is a good drawing done for the HSCA here.
I agree that the WC continually referred to a high velocity bullet or missile over and over again, and they continually used a number of 2,000 fps, and they seemed to interchange these, indicating that for their purposes, 2,000 fps is pretty high velocity. If you have any references where they say that 2,000 fps would be “medium velocity” and therefore couldn’t cause the damage, I’m listening.
But Dr Olivier conducted tests on skulls, using the same ammunition, and the same type of rifle, and got very similar results, including blowing out skull to the right side of the bullet path, and the bullet fragmenting:
Well, lots of forensic pathologists looked at the debris pattern and didn’t pick up on that. From the WC report, from the four pathologists who looked at the autopsy data for Gen Ramsey Clark:
I’m trying to figure out where you think the shot must have come from, with your assumption that the skull blowout is a centered exit wound. It seems to me that the Zapruder film would positively rule out a frontal shot, no? And for that to be the exit wound, the shooter would have to be in the grass lawn on the left side of the car, in full view of everyone including Zapruder. I don’t recall seeing anyone with a gun there.
I’ll agree to all of that.
Actually there is someone in that general line of site and they are on film (AP Wide World Photos) holding an AR-15. This type of gun fires a high velocity, thin-wall jacketed bullet. It was tested in the House Select Committee gelatin block tests but was left out of the final report. They tested a 6.5 mm Mannlicher-Carcano bullet which shot smoothly through the gelatin. The AR-15 shot disintegrated in the test.
Let’s see. 24006060/5280 = 1636 mph.
20006060/5280 = 1363 mph.
We’re still talking about a supersonic round, here. This isn’t a pistol by any means.
Hm. a .22 LR bullet tends to go from 900 to 1800 FPS. A .22 is considered, generally, a high velocity rifle, because of the smaller bullet.
A ‘high-velocity’ round for the .22 LR is 330 Meters/Second. About 1082 feet per second.
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/highvel.htm
Really high velocity bullets are a special case, like a bullet weighing 48 grains going over 4,000 fps. That’s ‘grains of sand’.
So, ‘low velocity’ and ‘high velocity’ are a bit relative. It’s still easily supersonic, nearly twice the speed of sound. That said, it wasn’t a ‘high velocity round’.
I fail to see how a bullet that size, going at a respectable speed, would fail to do the damage.
On the left side of the limousine? Can you post a link to the photo?
Again, Dr Olivier did these tests for the Warren Commission, with animal skulls filled with gelatin, and got blown out skull chunks with bullet fragments using the exact same kind of ammunition Oswald was using. In the HSCA tests you refer to, did they test with a skull, or was it just a chunk of gelatin? I’m not sure why that matters, since the fragmentation had already been demonstrated.
From the car following the President. If I can find a link to it I’ll post it but I don’t think it was part of the WC.
Again, Dr Olivier did these tests for the Warren Commission, with animal skulls filled with gelatin, and got blown out skull chunks with bullet fragments using the exact same kind of ammunition Oswald was using. In the HSCA tests you refer to, did they test with a skull, or was it just a chunk of gelatin? I’m not sure why that matters, since the fragmentation had already been demonstrated.
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I would accept this except I’ve seen tests that show the opposite although skulls were not used. Mellons, water jugs and that type of item. The heavier the jacket, the more chance it has to remain intact (except for “toothpasting” out the back and the jacket still remains intact. An AR-15 bullet will shred just about anything it hits. It’s thinner jacket will come apart. That’s why you have the first bullet intact (but deformed).
