I’ve always been intrigued, like many of you, on the John F. Kennedy assasination.
This case seems to be of special value to conspiracy theorists and I’d have to say that if there ever was a case in history, in which one can talk about any type of government conspiracy, this one is it.
I’m certainly not an expert on this subject at all, and have done some recent reviewing of the assasination through various sources on the internet.
I even saw 2 video clips on You Tube regarding this subject that were quite interesting:
This brings me to my point: do you believe these videos? Does the narrator have reliable sources and valid paperwork?
And in general, I would like to hear your 2 cents on this whole issue. Was this assasination the result of just one man, or is this deeper and more sinister than what the Warner Commission would have you believe?
I did not view the linked videos but will say the JFK assassination is one of the most heavily scrutinized/studied events in American history. I’d be shocked if anyone had anything new to offer at this point.
I took a class in college dedicated to the JFK assassination (one of the most popular elective classes at the university). The professor had dedicated his life to studying it in excruciating detail. After our final (where the last question was an essay question asking our opinion on what happened) the professor laid out his conclusion. That was there was a single gunman and no conspiracy. Take it FWIW.
Those videos rehash the same tired arguments that the JFK conspiracy crowd has always used.
Back-and-to-the-left: The exit wound was obviously to the front - how again does that imply a shooter from the front?
Officer Hargis sprayed with Kennedy’s brain matter, being behind the limo. The matter was sprayed in a cloud, the wind was blowing, the motorcycle was moving basically towards the cloud. Is it any wonder he got sprayed with some of it?
Two spent cartridges instead of three on evidence sheet. One of the cartridges was separated from the other two, so the police could investigate where they were bought. This was dealt with by the Warren Commission. Cite
There was a lot of other minor points that didn’t seem worth mentioning. Was there anything you found compelling?
Sorry…his evidence was pretty much all evidence ever recorded or discussed. This was his lifetime project and he was an expert. After spending (literally) decades going over the evidence that was his conclusion although he admits there is never likely to be certainty in this.
I saw mentioned the bit about the head moving backwards to support the notion he was shot from the front. While counter intuitive I saw a demonstration (video in class) where they recreated the shot from behind and the object being hit from behind moved backwards. Just one of those odd things I guess.
Allow me to cite one of the most valuable sources on the Internet for this kind of discussion The Kennedy Assassination Page.
For instance, a simple search on “frame 313” brings up this page, with an extensive discussion of the first point raised by the first of the videos you posted.
It was the work of one man, Lee Harvey Oswald by name.
His claim that the fatal head shot was not from behind is wrong. It’s clearly an exit wound resulting from a shockwave in the head cavity.
However, the information that only 2 of the 3 cartridges had been fired is huge. I read a book (Mortal Error) that concluded a secret service agent had fired the 3rd shot by accident due to the car lurching forward and only 2 shots were fired by Oswald. His contention was that the 3rd cartridge was used as practice round because of repeated strikes on it from jacketing the round. this was based on the evidence of 3 empty cartridges, one of which had extra markings on it from repeated use.
The other interesting thing pointed out in the video is that people could smell gunpowder. If the shot was from the grassy knoll then the wind would have been blowing from that direction and the people standing on the bridge would not have smelled it (cited in the book I mentioned). If, however, the SS agent discharged his weapon then people lining the street would have smelled it as well as the people standing on the bridge when the car went under it. To restate this, the smell of gunpowder traveled the length of the motorcade.
If the information is true in the video and only 2 spent cartridges were found then that gives ammunition to the idea that another person fired the 3rd shot. That is a HUGE disclosure.
BTW, Mortal Error named the SS Agent by name. The man waited until the statute of limitations had expired to sue (which of course was thrown out). When I first heard the premise of the book I thought it was the craziest thing ever. According to the prologue, the author deduced the angle of the entry early in his investigation. He concluded that the 3rd shot was at street level and the bullet was of a different nature due to the wound. It was a dead end story until he came across a picture of the motorcade speeding away showing an agent standing up with an AR-15 in his hand. The gun and angle of entry matched his early assessment of the entry wound and type of bullet.
I don’t know. I’m not one to jump into ANY conspiracy bandwagon. I’m not stating 1984 happened here, but there are so many things and logical errors (like the much mentioned head-angle, once being shot) in this assisination that it does not make it worthy of quick dismissal.
In other words, if things were that simple, that one man, Oswald, managed to kill the president of the United States from a building and then got caught. Okay. The guy had a good angle, he (presumably) was a great shooter and killed the president.
But then you have the fact that the guy is killed in less than a day by another nut-case. How can Oswald, being the most “wanted” and hated man in America be so easily killed with so much protection based around him? I mean, REALLY how the heck is that possible without some form of facilitation?
Then take into account the way the head moves, the fact that the government refuses to give out certain documents regarding the case, people in the crowd smelled gun powder emerging from a field and things get a little more complicated.
Licoln was killed, easy. Not much to argue there. Reagan was almost murdered, but he got lucky. Had he been killed, it would have not been crazy to believe that it was just one gun man that did the job in a crowded place.
This does not feel that straight-forward.
I’m not denying that Oswald killed Kennedy, but there is simply too much stuff going on in this assasination attempt for it simply to be taken as a fact of the Warren Commission is just right and all other alternative views are from those “conspiracy lovers”.
I’m just saying things did not go as smoothly as they should have in terms of releasing information to the public not to mention security flaws.
No, it was a fairly easy shot. He didn’t have to be a great shooter at all.
How is that possible? Well, Ruby lunges out of the crowd, sticks a gun in Oswald’s gut, and blows a hole in him.
If you are suggesting that the Dallas Police Department wanted that to happen, what exactly was their motivation? And how exactly would they go about getting everyone in the hallway when LHO was shot to obey orders to that extent, and stay silent about it for the rest of their lives?
I recommend that you read some of the cites provided about this.
Again, feel free to read the cite before you base any theories on things like this.
If there is anything on earth that has not been “quickly dismissed”, it is conspiracy theories about the JFK assassination. People have spent considerable time and effort to debunk the myriad of plausible, semi-plausible, and entirely bizarre notions that people come up with.
And it always comes up to the same end. All the things your videos mention have been exhaustively examined and adequately debunked.
It’s kinda easy to prove the Warren Commission right if Oswald didn’t really have a trial. The fact that he got killed so soon does not necesarily involve a huge net-work of people, but it does raise questions about Oswald’s associates.
And the mystery of the grassy knowles still remains. Many people there claimed to have heard and smelled the shot from that direction.
That’s all I’m stating for this thread. I’ve seen these debates before and they go back and forth and back and forth for way too long. There are reports and counter-reports and different data from different sources. I’m not playing the citation game.
Things may have been as simple as stated as in the Warren Commission. I think more people were involved. I’m not sure who or what or for which purpose. You can call me crazy, hard-headed or “conspiracy theorist” lover, but I’m one who’s open for exceptions on this case.
I’ll let you Dopers discuss this issue, that’s if anyone here has any doubts about the Reports.
When I learned, possibly from you, that the normal sights were still in place I became more confident that Oswald could have fired three shots than when I assumed he fired, jacked a round, reacquired the target through the scope (the slow part), fired a second time, and repeated the process, all in six seconds. I don’t know about Oswald, but I can aim faster through iron sights than a scope.
Other things still keep my CT meter in motion, but I’m nuts like that.
People have already provided reputable (and thoroughly documented) citations that show your basic assumptions are wrong. Why discuss the possibility that something which has been shown to be wrong implies that something else which has very good documentation is also wrong.
There are lots of interesting questions raised by the odd activities and seeming inconsistencies in the case but they’ve all been thoroughly investigated and in the end don’t change the basic story of the events: Oswald was the only shooter.
My favorite part of the videos was (paraphrased) “look at the man in the background of this picture. At first I thought it was Oswald, which casts doubt on the Warren Comission. But now I know it just looks like Oswald, which casts doubt on the Warren Comission.”
I don’t have much to add, but it’s “knoll”. Grassy knoll.
Out of interest, what would be convincing evidence to you? What would you require before you said “Ah, that makes sense to me, I am convinced that it was LHO acting alone.”? And, to the other side, what evidence would you require for you to say “Ah, I am convinced that it was not LHO acting alone?”?
Haven’t you seen the infamous melon experiment? Many people have done it. You can repeat it easily enough yourself. Get an approximately head-sized melon (a honeydew works well), wrap it all over a few times with packing tape, grab a hunting rifle, and shoot it. (From a safe distance and observing proper firearms safety, of course.) The melon will bounce back toward the direction of the shooter, not away. This is because the bullet does not impart much energy to the melon (or head) overall on entry, but the momentum of the ejecting matter causes a corresponding reaction in the melon (head). It’s simple kinetics.
“…And over here in the crowd, we see a girl holding a puppy, which casts doubt on the Warren Commission. And look carefully at this fluffy cloud, which casts doubt on the Warren Commission. Also of note is this street lamp, which casts doubt on the Warren Commission. And if Chewbacca lives on Endor, that does not make any sense, which casts doubt on the Warren Commission.”
It’s always the same with the conspiracy types. They’re more fueled by a strong desire to find fault with the “official” explanation than anything else. They just ignore the fact that you can find peculiar details about anything if you look hard enough.
It’s been 45 years. If there was a conspiracy behind Oswald (or multiple gunmen, whatever) then who was behind the conspiracy? Here’s what I’ve heard:
The CIA
The Soviet Union
Cuba (with or without the agreement of the Soviet Union)
Mafia
Extreme right-wingers
Extreme left-wingers
The military
Lyndon Johnson
Rcihard Nixon
In almost a half-century, you’d think that all the people who believe there was a conspiracy would somehow eliminate all the false leads and start to agree on the one group who was really behind everything. Instead we have to believe that either all these groups had something to do with the assasination, or The Real Conspiracy ™ was so good that they’ve been able to keep attention focused on diametrically opposite groups.
