Jimmy Carter is upset over human rights abuse in North Korea … by the US and South Korea against the North Korean people.
Fair or stretching the definition of human rights violations so far as to be totally meaningless? I vote that Carter has lost it even more than he has in the past.
Ridiculous…but then, it IS Jimmy Carter. The North Koreans have no right to someone else’s food just because they have mismanaged their own country for so long that they are dependent on others to feed their population. If they want aid, then they have to play by the rules of the folks offering to give them food…otherwise, they don’t get it.
-XT
Yeah, nonsense. If he wants to say we, as a people, have a moral responsibility to help the NKs, then that’s an argument that can be made. Calling it a human rights abuse is absurd.
There are other countries besides the US and SK. China can help them out, They’re the ones propping that odious regime up in the first place.
It would take quite a bit of naivety to believed that if we gave large amounts of food to Kim Jong Il, he would then distribute to North Korean people in need. I entirely agree with Carter that there’s a moral obligation for wealthy countries to help deal with famine when the situation allows them to do so. The current political situation in North Korea prevents outside do-gooders from actually doing any good.
Except the people in N. Korea who are not playing by the rules are not the people who are starving to death.
Sanctions are a pretty complicated issue, since they often tend to punish a bunch of already downtrodden peasants for the actions of the people for the actions of the people repressing them. I can see disagreeing with Carter here, but I don’t think his view is “ridiculous”.
That is a shame, no doubt. And very unfortunately. Sadly, there isn’t much we or South Korea can do about that. Short of military intervention, the North Korean government is going to run the country the way they are going to run it. Because the North Korean government has brought about such suffering to their people, however, doesn’t give them the RIGHT to other countries food or resources, however…and doesn’t put a moral obligation on other countries to dig them out of the hole they are in.
All the NK’s have to do to get that food is to play nice with the rest of the world. We aren’t even asking them to lighten up on their repressive government, aren’t requiring them to let all those folks in re-education camps go, not requiring them to a higher standard of treating their population humanely. Not exactly putting an odious burden on them in exchange for their people not starting to death.
I think his view IS ridiculous…or ‘rudiculous’ if you prefer. Applying sanctions is the only way to try and force a regime such as North Korea to even a minimal standard of conduct. Should we reward them for sinking other countries warships or shelling other countries territory that just happens to have civilians in it? Should we reward them for thumbing their nose at the international community and going ahead and developing nuclear weapons? If anyone is at fault here, morally speaking, it’s the government that so fucked up that they NEED other countries to provide them food or their people will starve, and then turns around and does the kinds of silly shit that the NKs do.
Carter is a loon…JMHO, and not based solely on this. YMMV, of course.
-XT
Good on him! It’s about time-
Wait… this isn’t about Guantanamo Bay? Or Manning? Not giving a hostile country food is a human rights violation now?
Okay, Carter’s still a moron.
We (the US and South Korea) do accept any refugees who manage to make it out of North Korea, right? As long as we do that, then I think our moral obligations are covered. Yeah, it’s hard to make it out of North Korea, and that sucks, but unfortunately, there’s not really anything we can do to help anyone who’s still in North Korea.
Except again, the people in the hole and the people and the people that dug the whole are two different groups of people. Kim Jong Il will eat well tonight regardless of what sanctions we apply.
Except several decades in, it doesn’t seem to work. We’ve been playing the sanctions game for a long time, and its difficult to see how the N. Korean standard of conduct could get any more minimal.
No. But I’m not sure allowing a bunch of their citizens who had no say in the matter to starve to death is a good idea either.
No question the N. Korean gov’t are the ones at fault. But I don’t think that necessarily absolves us of any moral duty to try and help large numbers of people that may starve to death this winter if we don’t help, even if a side effect is that it helps the N. Korean regieme somewhat.
FWIW, I’m not even really categorically against the sanctions. I just don’t think its the “no-brainer” other people in this thread do, and I can see Carter’s point about the suffering it will cause. If we go ahead with the sanctions, does anyone really think it will cause the N. Korean gov’t to behave better? I think the chances of that are pretty small, while the chances of it killing a bunch of people whose only sin was to be born on the wrong side of the DMZ is pretty high.
Sure, I agree. It’s not the average NK citizens fault that things are like they are…and the average NK citizen is who will have to pay the price for what happens. Unfortunately, our choices (the US and SK) are to either let the NK government do whatever they want and then bail them out when they fuck up, which just perpetuates the whole cycle. And the SK’s, after the events of the last few years, are increasingly opposed to doing that (after being willing to bend over backwards to try and keep the NK’s happy)…which rather limits our options. Not that I think we should continue to accommodate the NK’s regardless of what they do…if we do that then the NK’s can continue to hold their population over OUR collective heads, which isn’t a good thing for anyone except lil’ Kimmy and his merry men.
Well, there has been a bit of a sea change lately in SKs attitude towards the NK, and in their willingness to accommodate the NKs regardless of the provocation. In the past, if things were left to get bad enough in North Korea, we’d (collectively) cave and Kimmy would get his way in the end. This time it might be different. It might cause the Nks to at least briefly consider whether shelling a South Korean military base and civilian village is such a good idea, next time…or whether or not it would be ok to sink another SK warship. Or send another commando team into SK for the hell of it. Or any of the other dippy shit they try and pull.
I don’t see that we are really asking for all that much from them. They will still be free, for instance, to lock up or shoot any number of their own citizens they like and we won’t do anything about it. So, Kimmy can still get all the pleasure out of that, unsullied by our interference in his fun.
I agree. Unfortunately, I don’t see many options short of letting the NK’s do whatever they want and allowing them to hold THEIR population over OUR heads. And just because we choose not to GIVE them the food they need to keep their population from starving doesn’t prevent the Chinese from helping them out. It’s not like we are imposing an iron clad embargo over them, right?
-XT
I know, why can’t he just advocate bombing or invading other countries like the really GOOD presidents?
Agree or disagree that we are under the moral obligation Carter is suggesting - fine. It’s a complex issue. But I’m glad there are people like him in the world who don’t see every problem as a nail requiring a hammer as the solution.
Isn’t part of the reason for the suspension of the food aid the concern that it was not being distributed to the needy, but rather was being resold by the military? It’s a frustrating situation because it’s not clear that resuming food aid would actually do that much good.
Maybe this is because I have a bit of a soft spot for the man, but I wonder if Carter really truly believes what he said or it is just an attempt to win the trust of the North Korean leaders. He’s been involved in talks with Pyongyang since I was a kid. Perhaps he wants the leaders in the North to think he’s sympathetic to them.
The bottom line is that it is not the fault of the US or SK that NKs are starving. Nor does either country, or any country, have an “obligation” to feed anyone except themselves.
That said, even modest sanctions afford KJI a narrative scapegoat. “America is starving you!” Per Goebbels, it doesn’t matter if it’s true.
But now we’re stuck. Dropping the sanctions simply offers a new narrative of perceived victory for KJI. But in time, if the scapegoat is removed but conditions don’t change, do the NK people" wake up"?
How the hell did you read “human rights abuses at Guantanamo Bay” as “Yay, war!”?
I didn’t. I was responding to your comment that, “Okay, Carter’s still a moron.” *
It seems to me that Carter’s dogged focus on human rights - sometimes to the point of ticking off his own supporters - stands in stark contrast to the typical positions of many other presidents.
That is to say, lots of other presidents were inherently warlike IMHO, and I don’t think Carter is a moron for going against the grain in that sense. Although I don’t always agree with him, I find his focus on human rights to be refreshing and perhaps singular among U.S. presidents.
It’s all well and good to be focused on human rights.
It’s another thing entirely to be blind to the faults of those whose “rights” you are purporting to uphold.
It’s Carter. He’s either deliberately and increasingly turned to dishonesty as he’s gotten older, or he’s simply gone absolutely senile. I’m not able to tell, at this point.
[quote=“Scot_Dutch, post:14, topic:580037”]
The bottom line is that it is not the fault of the US or SK that NKs are starving.
[QUOTE]
Sure, on an intuitive level, this statement seems to make sense; some North Koreans may be starving, neither the US nor the South Koreans are actively making them starve, and hence the latter have no duty to the prior…
Except for the fact that the world is not that simple. Why are some North Koreans starving? True, you can flippantly dismiss this question by blaming the leadership… But is there more of relevance here? How about the fact that the North Koreans had to fight tooth and nail for their very existence? How about the fact that they have one of the most powerful and violent armies in the world permanently camped out on their doorstep? How about the fact that they have an increasingly belligerent South Korea constantly trying to see how far it can push them with its military shenanigans?
I maintain that North Korea is, by and large, a product of the forces that made it what it is. It has always had to worry about its survival, so it invested very heavily in its military deterrent. Agriculture came a distant second, and so North Korean civilians have suffered. Since it is US and South Korean belligerence that have made the North so paranoid, I believe that they must share much of the blame for the starving North Koreans. So, yes, you do have a responsibility to feed them – unless you’re content being heartless violent savages. Your call. Just don’t blame Carter for holding a mirror to your faces.
Yes…clearly if only the South Koreans hadn’t suddenly and unexpectedly invaded the North, things would have turned out much differently. I mean, here was the North, trying to be friendly and the entire mean old world, including the evil US hell bent on conquest just…
Oh, I can’t do this with a straight face. If you actually believe any of what you posted here all I can say is you are deluded, at best. It shows a complete disassociation with anything even remotely resembling facts, either historic or recent.
-XT