Mr Moto: I thought I addressed some of that. Jimmy Carter will certify elections where fraud takes place (Like, say, Venezuela)
Mr Moto, what are your responses to the comments and links in Dead Badger’s most recent post contesting the criticisms of Carter in the Venezuela elections?
Just reiterating that Carter did something wrong, and is therefore untrustworthy, isn’t any use if the actual facts don’t back you up.
There is no mention of Carter in the story I already linked to.
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=566688
Anybody want to address this point and the ones I’ve already quoted and are talked about in the linked article.
If it’s wrong then it’s wrong, just show me why as I’m very far removed from all of this but am interested.
Pardon me for my little joke about HHFH…it was in questionable taste. But as for the Venezuelan election: we have a Venezuelan college student living with us, and shee personally has seen open and egregious voting fraud in Caracas! Chavez’s goons transport busloads of poor people from the slums to the polling places…and they vote again, and again, and again…for him!
Carter is a nice guy…but he has NO CLUE about voting in Florida and anywhere else! in fact, his Secretary of the Treasury (Bert lance) went to jail, and almost took Carter with him!
Perhaps you missed that I posted:
The Soviets invaded Afghanistan on Christmas, 1979. Who was President at that time?
The argument being made was that re-electing Carter might have prevented 9/11. As you agree, the presence of US troops in Saudi Arabia was a primary motivation for Osama bin Laden staging 9/11. The US troops were there because Saddam invaded Kuwait. Under what scenario is it likely that, although Carter was unable to prevent the invasion of Afghanistan (and Iran), his re-election would have prevented the invasion of Kuwait?
Well, if you consider a little over a year to be “very little” time to do anything. Although you are probably correct that Carter could have done little about the situation - his fumbling incompetence in the Iran hostage situation seems to indicate that he would be in over his head in a parking lot puddle.
What could he have done? Well, the US provided the muhajadeen with training and support. Also Stinger missiles, thought by many to be a pivotal factor in denying the Soviets the ability to carry out airstrikes unimpeded. Carter could have done that. Could have, but since he had already demonstrated that, as a military leader he made an excellent carpenter, he didn’t.
I don’t understand.
Saddam invaded Iran on September 22, 1980. Again, notice who was President at that time, and remember that there was a history of border clashes between Iran and Iraq.
You seem to be saying that Carter wanted or encouraged Saddam to invade Iran, which he subsequently did. How then do you think Carter bears no blame for it happening?
Yes, he was, And perhaps you will remember that Bush Sr. led the coalition that drove Saddam out of Kuwait. And it took a lot less than the year and two months that constitutes too little time to achieve anything, by Carter standards.
No one is blaming him. Some are alleging that his re-election would have prevented it. Which is a pretty silly notion.
No one is blaming Carter - or at least I am not blaming Carter - for his association with the Democratic party. I am blaming him for being a weak-kneed ditherer with no concept of foreign policy and a gullibility so sweeping as to border on mental defect.
And since his judgement on such matters, as well as on subjects like North Korea and Zell Miller, is so breath-takingly stupid, I tend to put little faith in what he says.
Regards,
Shodan
I read Deadbadger’s response as well as the cite (had to blow up the small print to read it). The article dealt with everything but the exit pole. This is not an opinion pole of potential voters, it is a count of actual voters. The desparity is too large to ignore. To discuss this further invites a side-bar discussion of software-driven voting systems.
[QUOTE=ralph124c]
Jimmy Carter (aka “Malaise Forever”) is in no position to comment upon the state of Florida’s accomodation of voters. Yes, Florida has a huge population of elderly , near-blind voters.
[quote]
Cite?
I agree that that was offensive – almost as offensive, IMO, as the systematic efforts to swing the state Republican by finding reasons to disenfranchise Democrats.
I concur with Jayjay – that says much more about your values than about President Carter’s.
How fortunate for us that we are blessed with your critique!
Cite?
If you will look at the top of the page here, Ralph, you’ll notice that we are in Great Debates, not the Pit. I require that you substantiate your claims above with properly documented cites.
BTW, would you be so kind as to explain how your fulminations about Carter’s failures as a president and as a man have any bearing in the issue which he raised – the potential for a repeat of Florida Election Debacle 2000 four years later? There’s an old quote about Mussolini – “at least he made the trains run on time” – that says, in effect, that no matter how low your opinion of a man, he may have done something right.
Well, you are in a minority in regards to Zell Miller. Even the Bush campaign started publically distancing themselves from his remarks. And when the Bush campaign finds remarks to be too nutty and deceitful to fully associate themselves with, you know they’re bad!!!
Many of the problems are inherent in the political structure of Florida and the United States. The responsibility for running an election rests with the county governments, 67 in the state of Florida. Most ballots are long and complex, with offices ranging from President to County Dog Catcher, plus school boards, bond issues, constitutional amendments, judgeships and referenda. Voters are required to register with the local election board before they are eligible to vote. There are no standardized identification requirements for registration or voting. Voters are allowed to use absentee ballots. There is no national voter registry or national voter ID card. Most voting systems are vulnerable to fraud. The people who run the elections are often the same people who have the most to gain from fraud and abuse of process. Enforcement of existing voting laws in almost non-existent. The system isn’t designed to detect fraud, either by voters, political activists or local officials. Abuse of the process is viewed as “part of the game” by many politicians and party activists. Real reform would require constitutional amendments at the federal and state levels. It would also require the Democratic and Republican Parties to put the national interest above their own.
(emphasis mine)
And here is a little more info from the news article on the subject:
Hmmm…so, it looks like you get the story exactly wrong on how the fraud actually went.
Poly, the Does Amy still give him advice knock is an old attack on President Carter. During his re-election campain, I think during on of the debates, he was asked some question about education and he said how he asked his daughter, who was in public school, what she thought were the problems with schools were. This was an attempt by Carter to play the family man card but the Republicans jumped all over it during the election and made great hay with the idea that the president would ask a little girl what she thinks about something she has first hand knowledge. This, of course was before we knew Nancy Regan was talking to psychic mediums and then advising Ronnie.
But all this talk about President Carter is just a desperate attempt to keep people for talking about voter fraud.
Indeed, but the exit polls at issue were conducted by members of the opposing sides. Both the pro- and anti-Chavez pollsters produced exit polls indicating that they had won by 18%. From the Economist article I linked to earlier:
In other words, we have no indication that the opposition (or pro-Chavez) polls were conducted in accordance with rigorous and valid techniques. Given that both sides managed to produce polls showing them massively in the lead, it rather calls in to question the (unknown) methodologies used. As the quote shows, it is perfectly possible to sample real voters yet get a result that does not reflect the true votes cast.
This is now quite annoying. Do you have anything to refute the numerous and valid points made by both the CEPR and Carter Center in the articles I linked, other than your say-so? You seem awfully confident about your mud-slinging; perhaps, then, you could notify the Carter Center. After all, their website says
Clearly you’ve stumbled across something that has been overlooked by numerous professional statisticians and an army of observers. I’m sure they’ll be grateful. I’d be interested to know what it is, too.
After that story in the 9/28/03 Tampa Tribune about the vulnerability of Hillsborough County’s electronic voting machines to hackers, Supervisor of Elections Buddy Johnson ® has risen to his department’s defense. You can read the story here: http://www.tampatrib.com/News/MGB4UJ3FQZD.html
Interesting.
It was during one of the debates, that part is true.
The question had nothing to do with education. Carter said he had asked his daughter what was the most important issue in the world today, and she told him it was nuclear war. Cite.
Although if you think a school girl has “first hand knowledge” about foreign policy and nuclear arms, that goes a long way towards explaining the Carter adminstration and its marked lack of success.
Regards,
Shodan
Has anyone mentioned Florida recently?
I know this isn’t part of the debate but finding out President Carter’s daughter thought nuclear war was the most important issue is laugh-out-loud funny when viewed from Kim Jong-il’s angle. Exactly how bad a dictator do you have to be to get on the do-not-call list for nuclear power plants?
My apologies for the hijack.
See post 92.
So basically, someone is lying, someone is fudging the numbers, and someone is supposed to verify who is doing both. As for unknown methodologies, an exit pole is pretty simple. You count all the people leaving a precinct and ask them how they voted.
I’m not dismissing President Carter’s efforts, I’m also not throwing him a parade. I lived through his reign of Presidency and it was financially painful. It taints my opinion of him (as does the N. Korean nuclear plant).
Shodan, that’s an interesting clarification. But kindly notice that he did not ask her advice on nuclear war; he asked her what her opinion of the most important issue is. And that is a subject on which each person, no matter how young or how uninformed, is the best expert in the world on a subject – what his own opinion of what’s most important is.
My granddaughter has developed strong views, pretty much on her own though with unobtrusive guidance from her father, on equality for women and on the destruction of rain forests. She was the one who was “struck” by the issues when she first ran into them, and decided to make them concerns of her own. She just turned 12 this past spring, and has held these views for 2-3 years.
Do I count her an expert on the subjects? Hell, no! (Though she occasionally surprises everyone with a fact she picked up and hung onto.) Do I think she has a right to think that they’re important? Absolutely!
Amy Carter spoke for a bunch of 70s kids and teens in telling her father that nuclear war was an important concern for her, and for them. And he was and is their President too.
Think about that last sentence. If there is one thing wrong with the Presidents since Mr. Carter, as a group, it’s that they have been the Presidents of their supporters, and not of the country as a whole. If George Bush or John Kerry listens to you and not rjung, or to rjung and not you, he is not doing the job he was chosen to do.
And I apologize to the entire board for carrying on the Carter hijack any further.
If any person here thinks that Jimmy Carter’s past foibles are sufficient reason not to have a concern about whether fair and reliable elections can be held in Florida in 33 days – then he may be being a good Republican (or Democrat), but he’s being a damn poor American.
Erm? The Carter Center is not supposed to observe the exit polls, it observes the elections proper. Basically, we have exit polls of unknown methodology conducted by partisans on one hand, and heavily audited, observed and analysed elections on the other, backed with open and published methods. You can take the former over the latter if you want, but it does make your accusations of partiality somewhat dubious.
Which conveniently ignores the question of whom you ask (you can’t ask everyone), where you ask (you can’t be everywhere) and how you ask (the polls were conducted by people with a clear vested interest). If you believe that in spite of all these factors, exit polls are invariably an incontrovertible reflection of the result, then presumably you can explain why two separate exit polls each gave an 18% victory to a different side, and why you believe one over the other when you don’t know anything about how either was conducted. If it’s because you don’t trust Carter, as your last post seems to admit, then fine; but accusing him of partiality on this basis is rather hypocritical. It also ignores the fact that he, personally, did not oversee the election - his organisation did, and has provided a considerable body of evidence to support its view that the election gave a true result. None of this has really been refuted, and I’ve still yet to see any suggestion as to why Carter would want to validate Chavez’s reign (other than Mr. Moto’s “he’s a dictator-loving liberal” line).
Well, on the basis of exit polls, all the networks initially called Florida for Gore. I willing to go with the exit polls if you are! 