Shodan, Come, Let Us Reason Together

In this thread, which had as a topic former President Jimmy Carter’s pointing out that the recommendations of a bipartisan commission which he and former President Ford had served on regarding reforms to Florida (and other states) electoral practices to prevent a recurrence of the 2000 election disputes had generally not been implemented, Shodan decided to join the crowd in casting aspersions on President Carter, including in particular his having mentioned asking his daughter what her greatest concern was. Here’s an extract from his most recent post there, in which he responds to my discussing that issue.

I think the only proper response to this is suitable only for the Pit.

Look, asshole. I am interested in fair and honest elections, which choose the man preferred by a majority of voters (given how our system works, electoral college with winner-takes-all in most states, and all the other trimmings) for the job.

I am not interested in getting into whether or not one agrees with a past President, into making accusations about his abilities or lack of them, nor suggesting that one must agree with him to be a good American.

And you seem to be so purblind to the idea that your beloved Mr. Bush and his cronies might possibly be doing something dishonest that you see any questions raised about whether Mr. Carter might have a point in his criticisms, as being an attack on you and on him.

Quite bluntly, if your opinion of the issue raised in that thread is Mr. Carter’s credibility, then you have lost all capacity for rational discourse.

The issue is, can Florida conduct elections that will not be subject to the potential for electoral fraud by either party. The answer is, a bipartisan commission says that they have failed to protect themselves against that potential.

Get off the fucking high horse, and pay attention to the issue.

If a majority of Americans honestly choose Mr. Bush, than much as I dislike him and his policies, it’s my job to suck it up and accept him as my President for another four years. That’s called the rule of law; it’s why we didn’t have a revolt after the 2000 vote grab down there – because Democrats were prepared to go by the decision of the people selected to make those decisions, that the final tally awarding Mr. Bush Florida’s electoral votes and therefore the Presidency was what was to be accepted.

There is scarcely an American who doesn’t think there were some problems in Florida’s vote-tallying process. Even the most rabid Republicans are quick to point out the problems with the military ballots’ postmarks and how they were challenged by the Democrats. Butterfly ballots and hanging chads have become catchphrases thanks to the arguments.

I personally don’t give a good sweet fuck whether you think that Jimmy Carter was the worst thing ever to happen to America – he’s speaking out on an issue with substantive questions, which does not happen to be his personal issue but one raised by a bipartisan commission.

I did not and will not call anyone supporting Mr. Bush a traitor, nor accuse someone of anti-Americanism because they dislike Mr. Carter. I find that conduct vile, and have mentioned how despicable Ann Coulter is for engaging in it.

My issue is in seeing that the elections be fairly conducted and not susceptible to fraud – no matter who wins.

Your issue seems to be in seeing Mr. Bush win, no matter how dishonest he needs to be to win the election.

And that makes you beneath contempt.

You used to be a sound debater whom I could respect. Suddenly you’ve turned into someone who throws insulting accusations around.

My statement was very explicit: Don’t use Mr. Carter’s past mistakes to deflect attention from the issue he raises, which is a valid one: there were problems in Florida in 2000; those problems have not been fixed. You chose to take it as a partisan debate.

Well, fine – if it’s your opinion that fair and free elections are a partisan issue, I’m proud to be a part of the party that supports having them. Undecided voters, please take note: a conservative Republican thinks that the question of whether we should have elections untainted by fraud is a partisan issue, and is prepared to say that anyone calling for them is opposed to Mr. Bush. Therefore, kindly cast your votes on the basis of whether you approve of free elections not susceptible to tampering – One of Mr. Bush’s own supporters doesn’t believe that is a legitimate concern for a voter to have.

I used to think that the folks accusing Mr. Ashcroft of gutting the Bill of Rights were getting just a trifle extreme – but here we have a man saying, “Don’t worry whether someone is going to defraud you of your vote; anyone who says otherwise is just a Bush-hater.” Apparently the entire idea of a Republican form of government, where your vote counts, is no longer a Republican virtue.

What the fuck is wrong with you, Shodan? Has this turned into such a black-and-white issue for you that you see no problem with the issues raised?

Do you really think that nobody has a right to an opinion except you and those who agree with you? Do you think that children have no right to have concerns about issues?

I solemnly promise you that if Mr. Bush wins the upcoming election fairly, with no substantiatable accusations of fraud, I will start a thread in Great Debates acknowledging that I was wrong. Do you think, perhaps, that you can see the idea that the question of potential electoral fraud, not partisan politics, is worth dealing with? Or does partisanship mean more to you than the values of free elections these days? If so, I truly pity you.

Hate to say I told you so, but, well, I told you so.

Golf clap for Poly

I seem to remember having to spank someone over that Jimmy/Amy Carter lie once before on this board. I can’t swear it was Shodan but it wouldn’t surprise me.

Yeah, during a debate Carter said that he had asked his daughter what she thought was the most important issue in America. She said nukes and somehow the right wing glurge machine has turned that into Jimmy “letting Amy set policy.”

One simple reading of the transcript sets the lie to that bullshit. I’m amazed that any veteran Doper would even try to use something like that around here. You might as well say “hey, everyone, please kick me in the balls.”

BTW, I also agree that it’s ridiculous to say that wanting fair elections is a partisan issue. It’s tantamount to admitting that the Republicans want an unfair election.

Great OP Polycarp! It never fails to amaze me that few Republicans are interested in the election being as fair as humanly possible. Why is that? Hmmm…

We didn’t revolt because we were too stunned. Even beyond all the problems that happened in Florida proper, THE SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA STOLE THE ELECTION. It doesn’t matter who would have ultimately “won,” the world never had a chance to find out. If Bush did in fact get more votes (which I believe only came through vote suppression anyway) IT DOESN’T MATTER. We were not allowed to find out. I’ve had nothing but disgust for the Supreme Court since that day. I am not alone.

Regarding Florida 2004, here are some tidbits I’ve gathered in the past few weeks. It’s just a small sample of weird things going on in Florida. (These come from a cut and paste of a political e-mail I send my husband)

Yep. **Shodan ** was overdue for a dopeslap.

Dunno 'bout dat. A third of us were happy with the result, a third didn’t vote anyway, and most of the remaining third were able to rationalize that 4 years of “compassionate conservatism” and “restoring honor and dignity to the White House” wouldn’t be that bad.

Since there are so few who want a fair election among the 55,000,000 or so Republicans registered nationwide, perhaps you could give the decent ones some recognition by naming them here.

Sigh, I can’t. As far as I can see, Republicans have either been scornful, dismissive, or oblivious to any voting problem concerns, or they know what’s going on, but have kept silent either out of gleeful admiration or embarrassed shame. I said “few Republicans” because it would be folly to say “no Republicans.” I’m sure there have been some Republicans who are interested in a totally fair election, but I just don’t know who they are.

If you come across any, please let me know.

Gosh, the only one I know of is my sister. She must be the only one.

“If Fascism comes to America, it would be on a program of Americanism.’”
–Huey Long

Judging by the conduct of Dubya and his droogs, who have been busy lately giving Lady Liberty a bit of the old in-out/in-out, looks like the Kingfish was a prophet ahead of his time. To be fair to Shodan, he’s certainly partisan, but I don’t see any evidence in this thread that he opposes fair and free elections. Still, I’m certain that the only reason that the GOP hasn’t suspended elections is that they haven’t found a plausible pretext to do so.

Oh, horseshit.

This is morally no different from “you’re with us, or you’re with the terrorists”. If you object to having it said to you, don’t say it to me.

Wrong. I did not raise the issue of Carter being advised by his pre-teen daughter. Someone else did, and then another Doper misrepresented the nature of the exchange, and I corrected it.

You don’t like it? Tough shit - take it up with Carter.

Congratulations. The issue is not what you are interested in, but what Carter is interested in. He is an idiot on most subjects, and therefore his ideas of what is vital and what is not is a matter of no importance to me.

You have a different idea about Carter? Good for you. I don’t. You want to get bent out of shape because I could not give a rat’s fetid and purulent ass what the hell that dolt thinks? Knock yourself out.

Then don’t post suggesting it, and don’t start Pit threads because I have a different opinion than you.

How asinine. I am not allowed to question the assertions of the worst President of the last twenty years?

Horse shit.

Allow me to decline the honor of having “the issue” defined for me.

Carter is a dolt. I may have mentioned that, but it bears repeating. He is also a partisan dolt, as evidenced by his accusations of treason against Zell Miller for supporting Bush. And therefore my estimates of his motives are much different from your apparent desire that I simply accept that whatever he says is important. It isn’t. Because he is, as I mentioned, a dolt.

Fuck what your statement was. Fuck your apparent unwillingness to accept that someone might disagree. Fuck your high dudgeon at the notion that I might not genuflect at the altar of Carter.

Who the hell do you think you are, telling me what to think? Fuck off.

The reason he is worried is that the Democrats lost the state of Florida in 2000. It’s not because he is high-minded and noble and more insightful than ordinary mortals. It’s because Gore lost. And Carter is still seething over it.

Cripes, you people are idiots. The shit you people pitch about Bush, and the non-stop whining about everything he has ever done since conception, and then the instant anyone questions the need to take every fucking accusation some Democratic failure at face value - you run off to the Pit and start howling because someone dares to disagree.

Get over yourself.

It’s a fucking election. And both sides are jockeying for position. And some of that consists of selective outrage in some cases and grabbing for every advantage you can in others. And if you think trying to paper over partisan sour grapes with noble rhetoric is confined only to one side of the aisle, you are a bigger moron than Carter.

Why are you so scared of an accurate count, Shodan?

No, the Democrats won Florida, but the Supreme Court stopped the recount to keep Dubya from losing. Itr was a coup, and if the Dems had pulled the same thing, the GOP would have made sure to launch an investigation that would have made Whitewater look like a pillow fight.

Shodan, are you afraind of an honest election?

Why are you guys afraid of saying something without claiming that someone is afraid of something? Are you afraid of the consequences? I fear that your little ‘are you afraid of X’ quips are frightfully stupid.

This is where we probably get to the part where he refuses to take a clear stand on the issue in favor of rabid partisan attacks.

Why are you afraid of people saying others are afraid of saying their afraid of something, Brutus? :dubious:

Brutus, your calling anyone stupid is like a fish calling anything else wet.

And if Bush loses in November, I will be very surprised if you and your cohorts accept the results maturely.

Everytime someone expresses a concern about wanting an accurate vote count, Shodan accuses them of being liberal whiners. He refuses to acknowledge documented problems and refuses to acknowledge any need for accurate elections.

If he consistently attacks anyone who wants a fair election, what else are we supposed to think but that he doesn’t want a fair election?

The Bush partisans seem testy today. I guess they’re still smarting from watching their boy get his lunch eaten last night.