Jimmy Carter is "the best ex-President ever"

[DMC]

Britain’s Foreign Secretary Jack Straw said on Wednesday in an interview with The Times that he felt “a degree of compassion” for young Palestinian suicide bombers, a day after one blew himself up on a bus in Jerusalem, killing 19 Israelis.

Mohammed Haza el-Rol was 22.

In her inaugural foray into the substance of international diplomacy, first lady Laura Bush turned her teaching experience to the problem of terrorism and young Palestinian suicide bombers, telling a Paris audience yesterday that education can transform hate to hope…

The former schoolteacher and librarian called for children across the globe to be taught respect and tolerance.

Not a single incident was mentioned that involved a child suicide bomber.

Secretary of State Colin Powell complained that … "We’re killing lots of innocent young Palestinians who commit this act of murder called suicide bombing.

Not a single incident was listed, therefore no kiddies.

Mrs. Bush lashed out at Palestinians who incite teen-age suicide bombers,

Surprise, no incidents here either, except for some vague “market” and “bowling alley” reference. If you care to point out the specific instance, I’ll happily find the age of the bomber.

Listen to the Saudi ambassador to Britain, who sang the praises of the teen-age Palestinian girl who blew herself up three weeks ago in a Jerusalem market

Ayat al-Akhras was 18, so we are getting closer, although she’s still not a child.

For the record, I can come up with a couple of names of teenagers who one could say were aggresive towards Israel and were then killed, but they certainly don’t represent every single dead Palestinian child since 1987. Honestreporting is trying to account for hundreds of Palestinian children who were killed while “attempting martyrdom.”

You’ve criticized HR by questioning whether children participate in the violence. You haven’t provided any cites at all to support your position, just scorn and rhetoric. Now, I provide an independent cite that the terrorists recruit teenagers, which you reject out of hand. So, your position has no supporting evidence, yet you reject opposing evidence.

I haven’t just criticized HR, I’ve said they are full of shit. As for evidence, you haven’t provided any that demonstrates that all of the dead Palestinian children were killed while “attempting martyrdom”, in fact you haven’t provided evidence that any of them have. Am I supposed to provide lifetime daily journals of all the dead Palestinian children to prove that they were innocent, or should HR (or you) provide evidence that they were guilty? It seems like you would have the much eaiser job, as there should be a dead kid’s body with a bomb strapped to it somewhere.

HR is biased. Very, very, very biased.

[DMC]

*Originally posted by rampisad *
In my OP, I acknowledged that Carter is a great ex-President relative to the others I cited. He also is a great ex-President, relative to his performance as President, in which he was a major disaster.

I would actually disagree with your assessment of his performance as President, although I do feel that Congress was pretty piss poor during his administration. I felt that Carter’s main problem is that he knew he was right, and wasn’t willing to cave in to a congress that wasn’t willing to do the right thing. While I’m a fan of compromise (not to be confused with horse-trading, even though many politicians seem to think they are the same thing), I can understand being stubborn when you know that you have the right answers. He lost to Reagan because of the economy and the hostages (a whole different debate), not due to being a poor president.

Of course, it’s worth seeing how he got to be president in the first place. In his two tries, he barely beat Gerald Ford (now there was a joke of a candidate, hampered by the worst economic slump since the 1929 crash and by his pardon of former President Nixon. Yet he barely won - by 40,827,394 to 39,145,977 votes) and he lost to Ronald Reagan by a massive 489 electoral votes to 49.

I’m not sure what relevance that has on his ability as President or Ex-President. Using that as a yardstick, Bush must be horrible, since he actually had fewer popular votes than Gore.

**I would take the liberty of amending your statement - Jimmy Carter is a better ex-President than he was a President. **

Of all of the Presidents that I have been alive to see leave office (since LBJ), and therefore actually make comparisons, I can’t think of one who can hold a candle to Carter’s post presidential accomplishments.

I’ll take the liberty of standing by my statement, thanks.

[december]

DMC – you are getting on my nerves. You can’t win a debate without cites. You can carp at other people’s cites. You can set your own standards for what you believe. Note that Jack Straw referred to “young Palestinian suicide bombers” plural. One of them was 22. You don’t know the ages of the others.

Maybe Jack Straw was lying. Maybe Laura Bush and Colin Powell were lying. Maybe the Saudi Ambassador way lying. Maybe everyone is lying, except for you. Maybe you just magically know the truth, without needing any evidence. You may think you have second sight, but you’d do better to have second cite.

*Originally posted by DMC *
Ayat al-Akhras was 18, so we are getting closer, although she’s still not a child.

You have no basis for saying she’s not a child. We’re not talking about US law; we’re talking about publicly reported body counts of so-called “children.” Was Ayat al-Akhras included in those counts? You don’t know. In fact, you don’t know the source of those counts or anything about their accuracy.

I haven’t just criticized HR, I’ve said they are full of shit. As for evidence, you haven’t provided any that demonstrates that all of the dead Palestinian children were killed while “attempting martyrdom.” … Am I supposed to provide lifetime daily journals of all the dead Palestinian children to prove that they were innocent, or should HR (or you) provide evidence that they were guilty?

Under the rules of Great Debates, it’s your baby. You made the assertion: it’s your job to prove it. Your second sentence quoted above should begin, “As for evidence I have provided…”

HR is biased. Very, very, very biased.

Somebody is very, very, very biased.

[MC_Master_of_Ceremonies]

You have no basis for saying she’s not a child. We’re not talking about US law; we’re talking about publicly reported body counts of so-called “children.” Was Ayat al-Akhras included in those counts? You don’t know. In fact, you don’t know the source of those counts or anything about their accuracy.

For a start, I don’t think that any country in the world classes someone over 18 as a child, can you prove to me the US does?(clue: it doesn’t; there is no legal definition of a child. Though some legislation does talk of children, it is never used for a person over 18 years of age).

The youngest suicide bomber to die was aged 16 www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml%3Fxml%3D/news/2002/06/30/wmid30.xml+Youngest+suicide+bomber&hl=en&ie=UTF-8]The Telegraph, 64% of the 60-100 push hamburger HRW or suicide bombers were 18-23 most of the others were under 30 [Israelinsider](www.israelinsider.com/channels/ security/articles/sec_0049.htm). It appears minors only make up a tiny minority of suicide bombers.

Total minors killed in conflict can be found at the B’Tselem statistics section (no direct link possible), 306 Palestinian minors under the age of 18 have been killed since the start of the intifadaHRW

[DMC]

*Originally posted by december *
DMC – you are getting on my nerves.

And?

You can’t win a debate without cites.

You appear to think you can.

You can carp at other people’s cites.

Yes, and I’ll be happy to once someone comes up with an actual piece of evidence from a cite, as opposed to opinion pieces and vague “they’re recruiting children” claims. Hell, the Jehovah’s Witnesses recruit me all the time, but that doesn’t mean I am one.

You can set your own standards for what you believe.

I have easy standards for what I believe. If it’s a fact, I’ll believe it.

Note that Jack Straw referred to “young Palestinian suicide bombers” plural. One of them was 22. You don’t know the ages of the others.

I know or can find out the age of just about any suicide bomber that you can name. The fact is that the list of named suicide bombers, that would be considered children by just about any standards, is extremely short. If you want to talk about the children bombers, then don’t use 22 year olds for your examples.

Maybe Jack Straw was lying. Maybe Laura Bush and Colin Powell were lying. Maybe the Saudi Ambassador way lying.

Did any of them mention a single specific instance in which the suicide bomber was a child below the age of 18? I didn’t see it. I also never claimed any of them were lying. I’d hardly be surprise if Hamas and Co. did try to recruit teenagers. I’m just stating, factually, that not every single Palestinian child that has died from this nastiness, not even most of them, has died while “attempting martyrdom.” It’s not the authors of your cites I have a problem with, it’s the fact that they in no way back up HR’s claims.

Maybe everyone is lying, except for you.

Nope, plenty of folks are telling the truth. I’ll give you a headstart in how to find them. Look at all the cites that HR has a problem with, and you’ll discover the wonderful world of reality.

Maybe you just magically know the truth, without needing any evidence.

If that was the case, I wouldn’t be asking you to provide a cite, a single cite, just one itsy bitsy cite, that shows this vast network of child suicide bombers. I take that back, as I do know the truth. There isn’t such a network.

You have no basis for saying she’s not a child. We’re not talking about US law; we’re talking about publicly reported body counts of so-called “children.” Was Ayat al-Akhras included in those counts? You don’t know.

You can happily add her to the total number of named child suicide bombers, if you so desire. That would bring your total count up to one, which still falls a bit short of all the dead Palestinian children since 1987.

In fact, you don’t know the source of those counts or anything about their accuracy.

The source used by HR was Teen Newsweek. HR didn’t even question the accuracy of the counts, they simply said that all the dead were “attempting martyrdom.”

Under the rules of Great Debates, it’s your baby. You made the assertion: it’s your job to prove it.

Under the rules of Great Debates, extraordinary claims, and all that…

**Somebody is very, very, very biased. **

Yes, I already stated that.