When they were good they were very very good
And when they were bad they were horrid.
I just got the How the West was Won DVDs and it has left me all
When they’re bashing out a song they can be awesome (check out the Knebworth Achillies Last Stand) but they keep breaking down to long drawn out improvised unstructured noodling, see White Summer, How many More Times etc. which goes on far too long. Mostly it’s Page moosing around and it is really, really dull.
Many songs have extended guitar solos, some have solos where there aren’t on the record (there’s one tacked on the end of the Immigrant Song which doesn’t really fit). With so much soloing Page spreads himself too thin and you hear the same licks re-used in different song in performances years apart.
The thing is, it seems from what’s he’s chosen to be on the DVD that Page regards the experimental(?) stuff to be fundamental to what Zeppelin were about, where surely what we-the-audience[sub]tm[/sub] would rather have them just play the songs. Dammit.
Yeah. I think Zep had their moments of brilliance, but the whole 9 minute songs and interminable guitar solos thing make much of their material fairly inaccessible (to me). They benefited greatly from the era they were in, with people being newly amazed at big amps and long guitar solos. Nowadays, though, any schlub can buy a Les Paul, a Marshall and an effects rack and do pretty much the same thing.
I think Queen had the same problem, only different. When they rocked hard, they rocked really, really hard, and were amazing, but when they veered off into show tunes-land, they pretty much lost the magic.
You could also argue that The Who had a somewhat similar problem. They had these amazing chord-crashing moments in their music, but mostly just in the transitions, though, and their songs as a whole are not all that and a bag of chips.
IMHO and YMMV and all that.
God help me, I just slagged Led Zeppelin, Queen and the Who in one post.
I saw Zep live in Sydney in 1972 and I and all my friends were there not just to hear the hits - this wasn’t some plastic pop band - we wanted to see how the hell Jimmy Page would play this stuff without any overdubs. And since all the “noodling” was a free bonus, not in place of some hits - we wanted to see where that went too.They played for about 2 and a half hours and I don’t remember anyone bemoaning an unplayed single, but I can imagine what would have been said if they had merely churned through the album tracks as performed on the albums. Different times.
I don’t think it’s fair to judge a 1970’s era jam by 2005 standards. I think 70’s fans expected a long jam (as stated above). Zep live may be open to debate, depending on tastes and the chemically induced state of Jimmy Page that particular night, but their albums hold up beautifully. I can’t think of a band in the last twenty years with a catalog that comes even close.
I’m gonna have to disagree with the OP. If I had a time machine, and could go back and see Led Zeppelin in say, 1972, I would be sorely disappointed if they just gave read-throughs of their most popular songs. The 10-minute drum solos and guitar extravaganzas may make their (especially live) music a little inaccessible, but frankly this isn’t an issue for me. The best music goes unnoticed by most people.
Is this a generation gap issue? If you were into Rock and around for the 70’s, what you said would be considered the most ignorant possible statement and everyone would ask why you bother to go to Concerts then. If you just want to hear the song Note for Note, play the Album. (Vinyl Album, I am talking 70’s).
Are today’s standards that much different from when Dinosaurs (rock bands) ruled the earth?
BTW: Be very glad you never went to a Dead Show; they almost never played anything the same twice. If fact they played 21 straight nights at MSG and played different songs every night.
Jim
I agree with the posters who put Zep in context for the era.
Bottom line: there is a TON of slop in Page’s playing. You hear it in all the studio recordings, where he had plenty of opportunities to do multiple takes, clean it up, etc. If that’s what you hear in the studio, what do you expect you’d hear live?
Page values feel before accuracy and exploration before comfort. Put those two priorities together and you’re going to get slop. Add a few modifying substances and the slop factor is likely to increase.
So?
As a guitarist who has similar priorities to Page-y (okay, maybe not on the same level by a far stretch, but…), I would MUCH rather hear what Zep did live than some faithful note-for-note.
Bands like the Cars were known for playing note-for-note live. Ugh. I love the Cars, but damn - stretch it out, especially with a gun like Elliott Easton playing guitar.
Every now and then you get an artist who can both explore and keep it tight. Obvious ones are James Brown (the tightest band ever), Prince (ditto) and the Brian Setzer Orchestra (one of the finest players out there today - period.) They break their songs up into modules and mix n’ match the parts real-time (“take me to the bridge!” “break it down!” “bring it home!” etc. - all verbal instructions to the band). Then the lead players improv over the top of the changes - amazing to behold, but incredibly uncommon and not what Zep was about.
Believe it or not I was a Zep fan in the 70s (I’m older than you seem to be assuming), I practically worshipped Page (I was young OK) and could (and still can, mostly) play just about every Zepplin song note-for-note including the entire live Song Remains the Same version of Dazed and Confused. I had a violin bow, a double-neck guitar and I played with the guitar down by my knees I still am a fan but I’m a bit more sensible about it now.
My problem isn’t with there being a load of jamming, just with the quality (the “experimental” stuff), and repetition. In the the Song Remains the Same version of Whole Lotta Love there’s a great break down in the middle with some funky stuff and the Boogie Mama 12 bar section. I like it a lot, however, they pretty much play the exact same thing in the middle of How Many More Times on the DVD in a show three years before. Makes it look a lot less spontaneous. I used to think “Wow! Look what these guys can do at the drop of a hat” and now I find they’d done it hundreds of times before.
This is it. What dissapointed me was that the jamming was so samey. Listen to a Frank Zappa solo and he never seems to repeat himself. Pagey though he’s intense enough uses the same licks over and over. If you went to see Zeppelin 21 times in a row you’d not only see the same set but most likely see the same jams as well.
Forgive the rambling I’m still collecting my thoughts here.
WordMan I know all about Pagey’s sloppyness I spent years copying it :o
I’ve never understood “they played it just like the record” as a compliment. I hate it when that happens. I’m not a big fan of extended guitar/bass/drum solos either, but that’s a matter of what the artist wants to do, like WordMan said.
I saw Damn Yankees open for Bad Company. Yankees went nutz as you might expect from Ted being in the band. Energy level was blistering, they played the hits but adjusted as they saw fit. Bad Company was flat, played the hits just like the record (adjusted for the fact that Paul Rogers was not singing) and generally sounded like “we’ve played this a billion times but we know you wanna here it so…blah, blah, blah”–if I may paraphrase.
In today’s music business I don’t believe that Led Zep could even get signed. They don’t have a clear enough market segment that they’re focused on. Their style is all over the map, they play whatever they want in concert–in short, this ain’t no Brittany Spears/Backstreet Boys we’re talking about here. Nobody in those bands makes mistakes or takes extended solos.
Tastes differ, of course. I think you will find relatively few 70’s folk (me, I’m a 60’s folk) who think Zep, recorded or live, don’t hold up.
Okay, I think we may be around the same age or you might be a little older. I am only 39, but Zep, Yes, Floyd & Beatles are my favorite groups.
The closest I ever got to seeing Zep was the Page/Plant tour in the 90’s where they played none of the Zep songs like the Albums. This was fun.
I remember going to Yes around 1983 and having a one friend complained they didn’t play “Long Distance Runaround” the right way. We verbally pelted him. I always preferred when the groups mixed up the songs from concert to concert and gave us a different take. I will admit that sometimes the Dead got to be too much for me though. The 28th minute of free form expression Jazz Rhythm was not what I was looking for.
I thought you were in the category of my Friend. I am glad I didn’t just blunder in and call you an idiot. I still wish I could have seen Zeppelin Live back in the day. (say around 1973).
Regarding solos, the band does need to know their limitations. The 10 minute Michael Anthony (of Van Halen) bass solo I saw in 1985 was just horrendous. A drunken chimp smashing a bass with a lead pipe would have sounded better.
Come to think of it, the Sammy Hagar solo was completely unnecessary. Yes Sammy, we know you can play, but please, you’re standing next to Eddie Van Halen. Step back and be quiet.
Don’t think it hasn’t been noticed. The ghosts of John Bonham, Keith Moon, and Freddie Mercury will be visiting shortly. For your sake your furniture better be insured.
I wasn’t yet alive in the 70s, but Led Zeppelin is among my top 3 favorite groups all time. I own vinyls of all their LPs expect for CODA. I have played most of their songs on guitar and, like the OP author, I own a double neck SG for that purpose. I also keep a Danelectro tuned to DADGAD for playing certain songs (‘Black Mountain,’ ‘Kashmir,’ etc), an acoustic with constantly changing tunings (DGCGCD for ‘The Rain Song,’ DbGbDbGbBbDb for ‘That’s The Way,’ CACGCE for ‘Friends,’ etc.), and a Les Paul for most of the rest.
Yes, I love Zep’s music, but the primary annoyance to me while watching DVD concert footage is Plants singing. Shouting out endless 'Ooh yeah’s and 'Oh babe’s wears down on me long before I perceive a solo to be over-extended.
30 minute versions of ‘Dazed and Confused’ and some live incarnations of ‘White Summer’ and other songs did drag on a little more than I care to listen for my taste.
Even so, I’d rather see Led Zeppelin in 70s in their worst drug induced state than see most other bands on their best day.
For me the desire to hear a live performance “just like the record”, or close to it, is based on my personal preference for recorded music to be playable live, by the same band. Each musician only gets to do one track on the record. I know it’s considered limiting in today’s world, but I guess I’m a minimalist. I never subscribed to the principle that “more” is automatically “better”.
I certainly agree that more is not better. However, “live” is not “in the studio” either. The interaction/energy that happens between the audience and the performer(s) in a live setting can’t happen in a studio with no (or very limited) audience. That means you have to do something else–typically adding overdubbed tracks–in the studio to get the same sort of excitement/energy/drive on the recording.
To semi-circumvent my previous rant: I think that some folks, when they say “you played it just like the record (meaning “like the CD”),” mean that you didn’t make mistakes, weren’t out of tune, sounded clean. That’s fine, as a compliment, I suppose. Those who mean “you didn’t mess with the arrangement” need to take a pill and relax. We–us live-performing musicians, I mean–SHOULD be messing with the arrangement. If you’re gonna play it live, make it your own! jrfranchi’s friend who complained that
was quite properly excoriated*. That’s all I’m tryin’ to say.
Notice that Page & Co. understood this completely. “Live” was different for them as it should be for us all.
I don’t know a whole lot about Led Zeppelin, but John Paul Jones is awesome. I saw him in concert playing bass for a band, and it was great. He also played Going to California on the mandolin.
I just re-watched my 2-hour version (a buddy works for the NYTimes and gave me his press-review discs) and came away impressed all over again. I hear you, Small Clanger about the noodly nature of some solos and Immigrant Songs unnecessary bit at the end, but man, overall that was fun. Just watching Page get Kashmir out of a cheap-ass Danelectro guitar (let alone the slide work he does on that thing - think Jack White studied that?). And his work on his famous Les Pauls is fun to behold and gorgeous tone-wise.
With Bonzo killing on his Moby-Dick solo and JPJ as solid as ever, I love the DVD. I tend to mentally write off the noodling I don’t like - obviously a personal choice. But overall, the balance tips waaayyyyy in favor of loving it and enjoying it, not getting caught up in the stuff that doesn’t work…
I saw somewhere in the media today Jimmy Page has been honoured with an Officer of the Order of the British Empire, or OBE, from Queen Elizabeth, for his work with poor Brazilian children, rather than for his music.
The point of going to concerts in the 60s and 70s was to hear something that was different than was on the album; groups that stuck with just playing the songs as they were heard on vinyl were roundly derided. And many of my favorite concert moments were when the group did something with a song that veered away from the record cut. In this, they were emulating jazz and blues musicians, where jamming was an integral part of their talent.
I think a concert is much less interesting if it sounds exactly like the record. That’s just playing it safe. It can be fun, but it isn’t musicianship.
I still am a fan but I’m a bit more sensible about it now.