"Job Hopping" prejudice is ageism in disguise

The BBQ Pit
41

[QUOTE=The King of Soup]
You had a permanent position (and apparently quite a responsible one) and left it because your salary didn’t exceed “mid-20’s.” Actually, that’s not quite correct: your OP makes it clear that your problem was that you deserved a bonus and a raise more than the owner of the company deserved to spend money on herself, which is strange when you seem to understand that the money wasn’t coming from the business in the first place. I can’t quite reconcile the mental picture of an owner who takes “long pleasure-trips to Europe every month” with one who’s engaged enough to personally discuss salary with still-wet-behind-the-mortarboard junior employees, but that’s my problem.

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Yeah, you know what? Mid-20s is a HORRIBLE starting salary for an office manager in NYC, for ANY business. I was also doing database and computer work, payroll, accounting, etc. I knew how much was coming in and going out. It was a smallish place, but did a lot of high-end artwork sales. I didn’t come in with an attitude of entitlement whatsoever! I was promised an increase in salary after 6 months when I was hired, and I was also promised benefits, but neither happened. But, again, no one was getting treated well at this place- while I was there, there was a lot of turnover with the other employees. It wasn’t just me.

[QUOTE=The King of Soup]

Another problem is that you’re so smart and hard-working and self-sacrificing while your employers and co-workers have been so uniformly venal, self-indulgent, stupid and sleazy.
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When did I call anyone else stupid and sleazy? I was just disappointed time and time again that the temp jobs in which I performed above expectations never led to a permanent job. And, although this is easily bad luck, or the simple absence of good luck, I find that now I’m getting penalized for it as a “job hopper”.

What the hell does that even mean? I love the IMMEDIATE assumption that, if they didn’t hire me, it must have been because I did something wrong, not that they simply didn’t have a slot for me at the time.

THIS is the exact attitude by these hiring managers now that I’m pitting. I did great jobs and never got hired! And now, because one person didn’t hire me for whatever reason, someone else isn’t going to? WTF??

[QUOTE=The King of Soup]

While we’re on the topic of silly employment prejudices, it may be advisable to put away for a time your discovery that hard work is never rewarded: if they find out you know that, it reduces your chances somewhat.

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Come on! Give me some credit.

In fact, it’s entirely the opposite-- the worst part of it is that I always come in really optimistic. I come to really like the people I work with, I begin to enjoy the commute, I start to get to know people, I get a little high off of doing a great job and being part of a team and getting things done right. I get really excited about the possibility of staying… and I’m always crushed when it doesn’t work out. But I do every job assuming that it’ll become permanent, which is black-and-white difference from the attitude you’re painting me with, one of reluctance and pessimism. And the next job I get, I’ll be optimistic, too, despite all my ranting about how LIFE IS SO UNFAIR. That’s just who I am.

42

[QUOTE=NightRabbit]
…I was promised an increase in salary after 6 months when I was hired, and I was also promised benefits, but neither happened. But, again, no one was getting treated well at this place- while I was there, there was a lot of turnover with the other employees. It wasn’t just me.
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Sorry. I missed these details the first time I read the OP and subsequent posts.

[QUOTE=NightRabbit]
…When did I call anyone else stupid and sleazy?..
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And venal and self-indulgent? Well…

[QUOTE=NightRabbit]
…the company owner is taking long pleasure-trips to europe every month with the profits and then telling me she can’t afford to pay me a living wage…
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[QUOTE=NightRabbit]
…people took advantage of how smart I am…
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[QUOTE=NightRabbit]
…Dumb as a box of rocks, he was, and I had to train him…
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[QUOTE=NightRabbit]
…my (married) boss decided he had a thing for me and couldn’t keep it to himself…
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[QUOTE=NightRabbit]
…I would have a handful of references to vouch for this, if people didn’t immediately forget who their temps were two months later…
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I missed anything good you had to say about anyone you ever met in the course of your working life, but I don’t see much balance here.

[QUOTE=NightRabbit]
…And, although this is easily bad luck, or the simple absence of good luck…
[/QUOTE]

I’m beginning to be afraid it’s neither.

[QUOTE=The King of Soup]
…People who are as gifted and industrious as you can make it; but only if they are lucky enough to have been afforded planetary cohabitants who qualify as human beings: people for whose qualities the shining stars of the world can honestly manage to articulate some small appreciation…
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[QUOTE=NightRabbit]
…What the hell does that even mean? I love the IMMEDIATE assumption that, if they didn’t hire me, it must have been because I did something wrong…
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Not the assumption you’re shooting at. I tried to be tactful and muddled my meaning instead – sorry. I meant merely that it behooves people who have a high opinion of themselves to demonstrate a high (or at least not a low) opinion of others also. I’ll spare you an explanation of why this is so, but surely you can recognize that you could do a slightly better job of it?

The bouyant optimism and loyalty and team spirit and love for your co-workers that you profess is not the quality that shines brightest throughout your posts in this thread. Nonetheless, I repeat, I wish you luck.

43

What are salaries for office managers with five year experience in your area? About about entry level positions? Is the mid 20s normal?

Obviously you accepted the first job knowing the salary. What was your expectations for an increase / bonus?

44

[QUOTE=The King of Soup]
I missed anything good you had to say about anyone you ever met in the course of your working life, but I don’t see much balance here.
[/QUOTE]
Well, it is a rant, not “People NightRabbit Has Met, 2003-2008: A Survey.” And of the quotes you’ve used, context-free, one isn’t necessarily judgmental of others at all (taking advantage of how smart she is), one is entirely central to the reason one of her employments was short, so could hardly be omitted (the randy boss), one is almost inarguably true (people’s short memories for temps), and the others hardly point to some deep canker of the soul.

The OP has had several jobs, and is thus categorised as a job-hopper. She’s been told that this is so, and that this has lost her positions. End of. Why the attempt at psychoanalysis? It’s the bleeding Pit; it’s for ranting in. If we were to judge everyone’s personalities solely by what they posted here then we’d all look like a bunch of irredeemably grumpy dickheads with God complexes.

Anyway, I fully agree with those who say that temping is one job, with multiple assignments. Surely recruitment departments of all people will be able to understand the concept of temping when it’s presented as such. I also agree with those people who say that four jobs in this space of time is hardly indicative of some incurable wanderlust. It’s just silly that companies in the modern day with such a, shall we say … fluid attitude to employment should expect such devoted adherence from employees in return.

45

[QUOTE=Boyo Jim]
You’ve really had ONE job all these years, as a temp. Structure your resume that way, and say now you’re looking for something permanent.
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Bingo!

Du Courage. Looking for a job is probably the toughest and most depressing job in the world. I’ve been exactly where you are, and probably will be back there again in a few months. Just don’t get discouraged and give up. All that rejection can get you down, but it’s not you they are rejecting. Have hope. Keep trying. Remember that while hard work is rarely rewarded, persistance and tenancity always is. Call everyone you give a resume to over and over again. Trust me, it works.

Remember that HR people arn’t against you, but they arn’t for you. But they do have a lot of work to do so when they see a flaw on your resume, they arn’t going to go farther to find out the reasons behind it. You need to make it clear in your resume what your strengths are, why you’ve done the things you’ve done in life, and why your life plan lines up with their needs for an employee.

Structuring your resume around the idea that you have been working temp jobs and are looking for something permanent is a good way to do this. You may also want to try to play up the good things you’ve gotten out of your prior experience (e.g. working in a variety of environments, etc.) Be honest and clear and people will get your story and why you’d be good to hire. I’m picturing something like this:

Objective:
Seeking a permanent office managment position

Experience:
Temporary Office Manager
Bob’s House of Cards, Evilco, Inc., Super Business. 2004-2007
Provided emergency office support for 3-month to 1 year assigments in a variety of corporate environments[ul]
[li]Managed promotional program that increased sales by 50%[/li][li]Designed and implimented new staff scheduling system that decreased employee sick days by 20%[/li][li]Managed staff of up to 15 people [/li][li]etc. [/li][/ul]

And hey, if worse comes to worse it’s probably not too late to join the Peace Corps. I joined when I was 25 and it’s been a great two years!

46

[QUOTE=Antinor01]
4 jobs from the time you left college until age 25 sounds like quite a bit to me. (Assuming the temp jobs were through different agencies, otherwise they should count as only 1).

When I was 25 I was only on my 3rd job, including my high school job at Wendy’s.
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Did you not work during college? Did you keep the same job throughout it?

47

[QUOTE=Dead Badger]
Anyway, I fully agree with those who say that temping is one job, with multiple assignments. Surely recruitment departments of all people will be able to understand the concept of temping when it’s presented as such. I also agree with those people who say that four jobs in this space of time is hardly indicative of some incurable wanderlust. It’s just silly that companies in the modern day with such a, shall we say … fluid attitude to employment should expect such devoted adherence from employees in return.
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I regularly hire people who have temped, and are looking for permanent employment. I don’t have any issues which people have had multiple job assignments. That’s the nature of temping.

From the employer side, the difficulty is trying to weed out the people who work for you for three to six months and then get tired and quit. I don’t expect people will work for the company forever, but if I hire someone as a permanent employee, then I expect they’ll stick around for three or four years for a office manager position, and longer for a higher level position, such as a sales director.

Without seeing the resume in question, then it’s impossible to say what issues the HR people are objecting to, but unfortunately, to someone just looking at only the job history without knowing any facts, then the pattern doesn’t look promising. The problem (again, just as an outside observer) is that two of the jobs weren’t temps. It’s not as bad when you’re in your 30s or 40s and had two short-term permanent jobs on your history, but it makes it tough when they represent all of your history.

Hindsight being 20/20 and all, the second job was unfortunate. Again, without knowing anything in detail about it, I couldn’t say for sure, but if someone finds herself (or himself) in a similar position, then I recommend documenting everything and going to the HR to request reassignment.

For the first job, I’m waiting to hear back about her expectations. If the job were really underpaid, then I’d be interested in hearing why she took it in the first place. I don’t have a clue what the market is for that job in that city.

48

[QUOTE=TokyoPlayer]
For the first job, I’m waiting to hear back about her expectations. If the job were really underpaid, then I’d be interested in hearing why she took it in the first place. I don’t have a clue what the market is for that job in that city.
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She said earlier that she was promised a raise after six months, and benefits. Although that only partially answers your question.

It’s ridiculous for people to label you a job-hopper for doing some temp work and leaving one or two intolerable jobs. But I agree with the group- change your resume, create a label for temp experience, and that could help. Keep applying and stress that you are looking for longer term employment.

49

I had 2 jobs during college, which I’d work different parts of the year depending on where I was. In the summer when I didn’t have classes, I worked for PennDOT engineering, and during fall and spring I worked for U Pitt. I didn’t list each of those as like, five jobs. I counted each of them as one job. I had one job prior to college, and by 25 had only had one job post college, so… four. Out of those, the only ones with relevance to my current career field would be the previous job and the current one.

I’m 30 now and up to my fifth job. The shortest duration so far has been the current job, which I’ve only been at for a year and a half. I don’t think it’s that unusual not to have a slew of jobs.

50

I’m a job hopper and I’m an old cunt.

51

[QUOTE=Wolfian]
Did you not work during college? Did you keep the same job throughout it?
[/QUOTE]

Lots of people do. I had the same job starting my sophomore year until post graduation. Even going back to the same summer job year after year shows consistancy.

Though I’m guessing that “job hopping” as an excuse is just an excuse. I’ve known people who have failed mandatory drug screening and still gotten hired IF the hiring manager really wanted them - job hopping isn’t stopping someone from hiring you if they think you are a good fit. Something in NightRabbit’s resume, interviewing style, or even just the job search methodology is not creating opportunities. Whether that is because the superior tone of her rant is coming through when she interviews or whether that is for some other reason is unknown.

52

My guess is, if a company doesn’t want to hire a job hopper, it’s not because of your past—it’s because of your future. They don’t want to hire you, have you learn your way around, become well-nigh indispensable, and then have to conduct another employee search in a few months after you’re off to greener pastures. They’re looking for a long-term relationship and want to hire someone who’s seeking the same thing, not a serial dater.

53

[QUOTE=Thudlow Boink]
My guess is, if a company doesn’t want to hire a job hopper, it’s not because of your past—it’s because of your future. They don’t want to hire you, have you learn your way around, become well-nigh indispensable, and then have to conduct another employee search in a few months after you’re off to greener pastures. They’re looking for a long-term relationship and want to hire someone who’s seeking the same thing, not a serial dater.
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BINGO!!

As a former HR Drone, that is exactly correct. I never had a problem granting job hoppers interviews. The issue that I had was in the bigger picture, and at least in the company I worked for, job hoppers had about an 80 - 90% chance of bailing in a year or less. It’s not worth the resources and time put in to go through the training, etc., to bring someone one who very well might leave in a year.

There were, though, the 10% that were job hoppers and stayed. Heh, I was one of them. Stayed in my HR job for 5 years before I got totally burned out and decided to move to Florida (early retirement - haha).

Here’s the thing, **NightRabbit - ** until you find the right position/company/environment for you, it may take a while to nail down a job. For the most part, people think HR people suck (see your OP). That may be the case, but when it comes to hiring and placing people in our companies, WE do know what’s best. As a temp, you don’t necessarily have to “fit” the company culture. As a perm EE, you do. You may not have been a good fit for the company overall.

I would go back to temping if you can, and try to get the LONGEST assignment possible. I got into HR by temping - worked and assigmednt for almost 2 years before I got hired on the be an HR Generalist for the GINORMOUS utility company in NYC.

This just may be a time for you to look, and I mean **REALLY LOOK ** at the kind of job you want, the kind of company you want to work for, even the industry you’re interested in. If your just taking interviews for the sake of interviewing, and HOPE you land a job, that may not be the right route. Cause chances are, if that is the case, you’ll be job-seeking again in 6 - 12 months.

But what do I know? I’m just one of those old, stoopid, ex-HR bitches that hate job hoppers. :stuck_out_tongue:

54

[QUOTE=Wolfian]
Did you not work during college? Did you keep the same job throughout it?
[/QUOTE]

I didn’t go to college. I had the Wendy’s job for a couple years as a teenager, then worked for a temp service for a year which led to my job at Nationwide Insurance where I worked for 6 years.

55

[QUOTE=ultrafilter]
I don’t have my copy of “Generations” with me, but I believe they have Gen X running from 1963-1981.
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That’s correct and if NightRabbit is 25 then she was born in 82 or 83 putting her firmly in Gen Y.

And some generational studies now peg 78-81 as Gen XY, as many people from those years show traits from both generations. I’ve always liked this idea because I was born in 81 and I never felt like I belonged to either generation.

As for the “job hopper” idea, obviously I can’t speak for NYC, but anywhere else in the country a job in the “mid-20s” is a pretty fair starting salary.

56

I’m in that boat right now, and it sucks floppy donkey cock. I’ve been out of work almost 4 months now, with only little hope on the horizon. There are a lot of things coming together to make the situation crappy for people our age (28 next week), and they include: Shitty companies bailing on pensions, and benefits, Boomers sticking on like leeches instead of retiring to keep their benefits if they are so lucky as to still receive them, Poor economy, surplus of college grads, etc etc.

Here in Orlando, unless you live in the metro area, you’ll need a car. Period, end of story. Average rent even for a one bedroom apt is between 550-800 a month. Add in your health plan, gas, food, college loans etc, and most people need to make about 24-30k a year to get by and put something away. Most entry level jobs around here (exempting IT and Medical) are paying 18-20k. Yeah you job hop. You have to eat, you have to have a roof. Companies aren’t willing to pay for a college grad, when they can hire a high school grad for less. Companies aren’t loyal to their employees either. I’ve been stiffed on raises, and advancements before as well. HR will say anything to fill a position that they have to fill, so in the future I will always GET A CONTRACT IN WRITING.

The problem is that there isn’t any demand right now outside of IT and medical. No one is doing awesome in retail, or services and they are saving money by cutting payroll. It often takes me a month to go from application to interview, and in the meantime I’m hemorrhaging money.

What they want is someone who will work for peanuts, for several years, with no expectations of advancement, who will exceed all expectations, work overtime, and give it their all, for no promises of a career. That is bullshit, and anyone who says it’s not is full of it as well. There is NO loyalty on company’s side, why should I provide it on mine? What’s my motivation? A job that a monkey could do, with a supervisor who got his position through nepotism, for a salary that doesn’t make ends meet?

It sucks.

57

In terms of my expectations at my first job, I accepted the low salary because I was told that, after 6 months, I’d receive a salary review based on what I’d accomplished for the company, and I was also told that they expected to have health insurance for everyone within 6 months. When I was hired, they increased the scope of my job into a computer admin role as well, I wound up setting up their office network, some database work, all the technical stuff, etc., and saved them a lot of money because, before me, they were calling someone in to handle all the computer work. When my salary review FINALLY happened, difficult to schedule b/c the owner was always overseas, I had my ducks in a row and outlined all the major projects I’d completed and how I’d contributed to the company in the last year. I didn’t expect much, but I at least felt that I’d earned a few extra vacation days, or something. I got a five-second brush-off answer, “you’ve done a great job, but we really can’t offer you anything more right now. we can re-evaluate in 6 months.”

Most office manager jobs, without such heavy computer work, in NYC offer at least mid-30s with benefits. Less than 30 with no benefits is really below the curve. A) I didn’t know better at the time, and B) I was willing to start out low and prove myself. I still am; I do think, though, that there’s a difference between being strung along as a naive college kid who will happily work for a low wage and empty promises because they want an opportunity, and an entry-level job at a reputable company with a more growth-oriented system in place.

Thanks for all the suggestions about my resume! I’ll try combining all my temp stints into one and seeing if that makes a difference.

And I’m also not ruling out other reasons why I’m not getting hired although, based on what agents/recruiters have been telling me, it’s an unstable work history. I clean my teeth before every interview, though, so at least I know it’s not that! :smiley:

58

Oh, and fuck online applications. Goddammit I want a HUMAN to refer to when I want to check up on my app. I’m lucky to even get a vague e-mail address now. No name, no telephone, no contact info of any sort, just “If we like it we’ll contact you”. Fuck.

59

I have one other thought for you, which I forgot to mention above. You have listed mostly administrative/secretarial/office manager kinds of positions, which I get that you were doing because it’s what was available. I’m guessing that part of the reason that you didn’t have the chance to bankroll those into permanent positions with the company is because those kinds of jobs just aren’t that hard to fill. They might have had a few temps over the course of a few years, and when they needed someone permanent, the most recent one was the lucky one who nabbed it, just because s/he was there at the time. Or for some reason, they didn’t feel you were the right fit (who knows why…companies can be particular over what seem to be inconsequential details), which is why you had to train the new guy in one of your situations. What I would do now if I were in your shoes is to sit down and try to figure out what you really want to do…is it office work? Or is there some other field you would like to get into? If you are hoping to make the leap from office work to, say, account rep (I’m making this up), that can be pretty hard to do. Once you figure out what you are interested in, try finding a job doing that…no matter how low level or low-paying it is. THEN work your ass off. You will be getting the right kind of experience, and that’s more likely to pay off in the long run with opportunities to climb the ladder into more interesting/responsible/high-paying positions.

60

[QUOTE=Justin_Bailey]
That’s correct and if NightRabbit is 25 then she was born in 82 or 83 putting her firmly in Gen Y.

And some generational studies now peg 78-81 as Gen XY, as many people from those years show traits from both generations. I’ve always liked this idea because I was born in 81 and I never felt like I belonged to either generation.

[/QUOTE]

I figured I was on the tail end of Gen X- but I stand corrected!

[QUOTE=Justin_Bailey]

As for the “job hopper” idea, obviously I can’t speak for NYC, but anywhere else in the country a job in the “mid-20s” is a pretty fair starting salary.
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In NYC, it’s hard to find an apartment for less than $700-$800 a month, if you want to live in a semi-decent area (read: safe for a woman walking home by herself late at night) and even these have ridiculous competition, which is why starting salaries tend to be a little higher-- at least for companies courting college grads (there are always plenty of low-salaried positions where they’re looking for no degree).

After shelling out $800-900/mo for rent and utilities, having taxes taken out, paying off student loans, and covering your own health insurance, it’s really hard to make ends meet.