"Job Hopping" prejudice is ageism in disguise

The BBQ Pit
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[QUOTE=Sarahfeena]
I have one other thought for you, which I forgot to mention above. You have listed mostly administrative/secretarial/office manager kinds of positions, which I get that you were doing because it’s what was available. I’m guessing that part of the reason that you didn’t have the chance to bankroll those into permanent positions with the company is because those kinds of jobs just aren’t that hard to fill. They might have had a few temps over the course of a few years, and when they needed someone permanent, the most recent one was the lucky one who nabbed it, just because s/he was there at the time. Or for some reason, they didn’t feel you were the right fit (who knows why…companies can be particular over what seem to be inconsequential details), which is why you had to train the new guy in one of your situations. What I would do now if I were in your shoes is to sit down and try to figure out what you really want to do…is it office work? Or is there some other field you would like to get into? If you are hoping to make the leap from office work to, say, account rep (I’m making this up), that can be pretty hard to do. Once you figure out what you are interested in, try finding a job doing that…no matter how low level or low-paying it is. THEN work your ass off. You will be getting the right kind of experience, and that’s more likely to pay off in the long run with opportunities to climb the ladder into more interesting/responsible/high-paying positions.
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Actually, I’m working on writing a novel, so I’m not really looking to parlay admin work into something higher (although I’m constantly open to new things and challenges, and I try to make this clear in interviews). Office work seems like a good day job to support a creative endeavor in the evenings, and that’s how it’s been going. A lot of aspiring actresses do this in NYC, although I assumed I would be slightly more desirable b/c they always have to take time off to go to auditions, etc.

62

I understand, NightRabbit. I live in NYC too and when I first moved here I was told my resume showed me to be a job hopper and that I wouldn’t find employment. I was not actually a job hopper but had listed a couple of temp jobs so it looked like A LOT of stuff. I combined the temp jobs into one and changed my temp/permanent job listing to 1 position with a bullet point about how I was hired temp to permanent and about two weeks later I was offered the job I have currently which pays in the mid 40’s (which I consider to be EXCELLENT money for a 25 year old in NYC) but that it turns out is a super crappy job. Hostile work environment, 2 hour commute each way, and boring as hell with no real chance to advance. To top it off since it is insurance I am expected to pay for all of my continuing education classes and licensing fees and stuff…well fuck that! I am not paying to stay in a job I don’t enjoy where I feel like I am being attacked every day.

Right now I am covertly looking for something better suited for me closer to my place but I know I will probably be stuck here until at least October to overcome my job hopping resume image. Best of luck to you and if you ever want to get together for a drink so we can bellyache about jobs together feel free to pm me. :slight_smile:

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[QUOTE=NightRabbit]
Actually, I’m working on writing a novel, so I’m not really looking to parlay admin work into something higher (although I’m constantly open to new things and challenges, and I try to make this clear in interviews). Office work seems like a good day job to support a creative endeavor in the evenings, and that’s how it’s been going. A lot of aspiring actresses do this in NYC, although I assumed I would be slightly more desirable b/c they always have to take time off to go to auditions, etc.
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Oh, got it. What you want, then, is a decent job that’s interesting enough to not put you into a coma during the day, but not so stressful or time-consuming that you can’t follow your passion on your own time. My brother is an artist, and this has been the continuing struggle for him. He has had ALL KINDS of jobs (the variety would astound you), but I think the ones that he liked best were art-related…working at (and eventually managing) an art-supply store was one, and working as a graphics designer was another. These didn’t exactly fulfill his drive to create, but it kept him in that world. Would you consider getting a writing-related job, like writing copy? As another real-world example, my sister writes catalog copy, and although again, it’s not all that stimulating creatively, it’s appropriate to her talents as a writer, and it’s parlayed itself into a pretty decently-paid career.

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[QUOTE=Acid Lamp]
Oh, and fuck online applications. Goddammit I want a HUMAN to refer to when I want to check up on my app. I’m lucky to even get a vague e-mail address now. No name, no telephone, no contact info of any sort, just “If we like it we’ll contact you”. Fuck.
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My workplace (campus) has just switched to the “electronic only; no more paper applications” mode. Letters of rec. and transcripts must now be scanned.
Bit of a pain, I’ll admit.

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[QUOTE=FoieGrasIsEvil]
We are actively fighting against the well-established Mike’s Carwash, they are infiltrating Cincinnatti, but are based in Indiana. They have like 38 locations, it’s crazy. They are one of the biggest operators in the country.
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Yeah, but they suck truck nuts! I will never go to a Mike’s Carwash again, stuffed animals on signs or now.

ETA: I’ve temped for three different agencies. All good experiences. I left every agency having been placed in a permanent position. The last time, my first assignment ended in a permanent position. Temping is not always that bad.

66

Thanks pbbth! I may very well take you up on that…

[QUOTE=vivalostwages]
My workplace (campus) has just switched to the “electronic only; no more paper applications” mode. Letters of rec. and transcripts must now be scanned. Bit of a pain, I’ll admit.
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Yeah, you know, it makes me wonder if there are really more applications to process than there ever were, or if HR people are simply getting lazier.

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[QUOTE=NightRabbit]
Actually, I’m working on writing a novel, so I’m not really looking to parlay admin work into something higher (although I’m constantly open to new things and challenges, and I try to make this clear in interviews). Office work seems like a good day job to support a creative endeavor in the evenings, and that’s how it’s been going. A lot of aspiring actresses do this in NYC, although I assumed I would be slightly more desirable b/c they always have to take time off to go to auditions, etc.
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This is a mistake. If I understand this, you are looking for a moderately-well paying job that takes 40 hours a week, no more–because you want time to write. So you are, I take it, avoiding those sort of entry level positions where they want you to work 70 hour weeks for crap pay because there is serious room for advancement. You are, instead, applying at sedate, quiet jobs–jobs that are never going to go anywhere, but will be stable and reliable. The problem is that this is the one sort of job where you aren’t going to hire a job-hopper. You’re going to hire a mother of 3, the youngest of whom just entered Kindergarten and who is looking for something during the day. Treat that mom decently at all, and you have her the next 20 years. They are going to value that stability over skills–which can be taught–or intelligence, which is only useful up to a point–a person with an IQ of 200 isn’t going to be all that much better of a receptionist than a person with an IQ of 140.

You do take a chance and hire a job-hopper if they have unique skills–which you don’t–or if you have a job that needs passion and ambition–traits some job hoppers have (if that’s why they are hopping).

Have you really considered the career aspiring novelists everywhere? Teach! I don’t know what the rates are in NYC, but starting teachers in Dallas make 42K, and that goes a long way here. (Like, I am married to a grad student/TA and between us we easily afford a 3-bedroom/1700 square foot house 20 minutes from downtown) There are AC programs where get certified as you teach. It’s nothing at all like actually being in school (Thank god. I, and most of my teacher friends, hated actually being in high school) and 14 weeks free and clear each year to write is no little thing. Furthermore, teaching keeps you emotionally and mentally stimulated in a way that most office work doesn’t.

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[QUOTE=NightRabbit]

Yeah, you know, it makes me wonder if there are really more applications to process than there ever were, or if HR people are simply getting lazier.
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Lazier. Pure and simple. A lot companies use third party HR that have software that scans applications and “surveys” for key words, and ranks them accordingly. So you look at the green pile first, yellow second, red third etc… What blows is that a lot of good applicants get passed over because of the keyword of the day etc. Some people don’t have great resumes but interview fantastically, others are the opposite. E-apps screw those with mediocre resumes, but great skill sets.

The problem is that you cannot contact anyone regarding your application, so even if you really really want that job you can’t speak to anyone about it. Managers just tell you to do the online app, HR is unreachable, or refuses to speak without an appointment that you cannot make unless they contact you since they are unreachable. They don’t send you a rejection e-mail either, so you’ve no idea when or if they will ever call you.

I’m only a little bitter. :slight_smile:

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[QUOTE=Justin_Bailey]
That’s correct and if NightRabbit is 25 then she was born in 82 or 83 putting her firmly in Gen Y.

And some generational studies now peg 78-81 as Gen XY, as many people from those years show traits from both generations. I’ve always liked this idea because I was born in 81 and I never felt like I belonged to either generation.

As for the “job hopper” idea, obviously I can’t speak for NYC, but anywhere else in the country a job in the “mid-20s” is a pretty fair starting salary.
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Measuring generation endpoints can be sketchy at best, especially when you throw in those who are at the meeting points. I was born in early 1983, but culturally I’m an XY because of living with Xers for siblings and being exposed to more X culture than Y culture. I’m pretty split between the two, to be honest.

NightRabbit, I can understand what you’re going through. I graduated college in April 2006, and ended up in a year of temp jobs (with one temp-to-hire that fizzled out*) before I moved in May 2007. I was applying for grad school at the time, so it didn’t matter as long as I could save some money. However, for 2007, I had four jobs: one for the temp agency, one for another fly-by-night two month position, one for the position I found as soon as I got to the area, and the one I’m in now. If I count all the jobs I’ve had up until now, I would be at 11 jobs total. I did, however, luck out and was able to work for two and a half years of college at one job when I wasn’t gone for the summer. I had another job during college for eight months, and I had three summer jobs during high school and college. When applying for my current position (and any one after the temp assignments), I consolidated my temp time, eliminated the one and two month jobs from my resume, and worked really hard at making sure that the longer term jobs proved what I could do. Because of the field I’m in, I put down my volunteer experience as well, because it makes my overall experience in the field nearly double of what I have with paid work alone.

It’s all a matter of marketing and trying to have a company want to get to know you; however, considering that I’ve seen Acid Lamp’s job struggles first hand, it’s very difficult to work through a job that’s shitty and won’t give you an opportunity to prove yourself. Mid-year layoffs seem like a death sentence on resumes and job applications, and online applications seem to go nowhere. Since you’re still looking at just finding a more permanent job that’ll let you do your writing, I suggest that you see if your temp agency will throw some permanent positions your way or send you on interviews for companies that are willing to hire full time in addition to doing your own job hunt.

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[QUOTE=Manda JO]
This is a mistake. If I understand this, you are looking for a moderately-well paying job that takes 40 hours a week, no more–because you want time to write. So you are, I take it, avoiding those sort of entry level positions where they want you to work 70 hour weeks for crap pay because there is serious room for advancement. You are, instead, applying at sedate, quiet jobs–jobs that are never going to go anywhere, but will be stable and reliable. The problem is that this is the one sort of job where you aren’t going to hire a job-hopper. You’re going to hire a mother of 3, the youngest of whom just entered Kindergarten and who is looking for something during the day. Treat that mom decently at all, and you have her the next 20 years. They are going to value that stability over skills–which can be taught–or intelligence, which is only useful up to a point–a person with an IQ of 200 isn’t going to be all that much better of a receptionist than a person with an IQ of 140.

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I tend to think this is a particularly valid statement, in that I’ve gotten feedback saying, “she’s too smart, she’ll be too bored in this job, it’s not a good fit”, for positions that were really attractive to me- stable, well-paying, good-hours jobs. Sometimes I DO think it would benefit my job prospects if I left my degree off my resume and talked about being a parent instead of an aspiring writer. :smack:

In response to teaching, I’m really a horrible misanthrope, and I hate children. I don’t think I have the personality for that kind of work. In the past, I’ve been very satisfied with repetitive, menial work. I have an active imagination so I don’t find it hard to entertain myself, I bring a crossword in case I get stuck sitting around, and making booklets all day beats doing telephone-surveys or working in a convenience store like I did during summers in college.

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I always found putting in a sub category called Contract Positions. Then I listed them. Anything in that category would be understood as temp and would get a different label of scrutiny.

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[QUOTE=NightRabbit]
I tend to think this is a particularly valid statement, in that I’ve gotten feedback saying, “she’s too smart, she’ll be too bored in this job, it’s not a good fit”, for positions that were really attractive to me- stable, well-paying, good-hours jobs. Sometimes I DO think it would benefit my job prospects if I left my degree off my resume and talked about being a parent instead of an aspiring writer. :smack:
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Oh, yeah, DON’T tell interviewers (or put on your resume) that what you really want to do is something else entirely! I would take that as a bigger red flag than the job hopping! If you want something with stability, don’t tell them anything that might seem to contradict that.

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[QUOTE=jacquilynne]
The thing with a temp to perm higher is generally it requires paying the temp agency some ridiculous amount of money. For relatively low-skilled positions that are easy to fill, it might well be a lot cheaper to hire and train someone brand new off the street than keep a temp to perm.
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Bingo.

I was a hiring manager in the past and ran into this exact situation. The temp I had was excellent and I wanted to hire her. I couldn’t, though, because the temp agency would have wanted much $$$ and the company wouldn’t pay it. Well, they would have, but out of the salary of the position and since the salary was pushing the low end of the market, I didn’t want to do it as it might have ended up my new salary level for my future hires.

Someone with experience and did very well, sure.

Entry level out of college…no.

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I just signed up after lurking for over a month now because of this thread. Last year I was suddenly out of work and got a lot of advice…some asked for, some not so much. Anyway the most useful thing information was a book called *Corporate Confidential: 50 Secrets Your Company Doesn’t Want You to Know—and What to Do About Them * by Cynthia Shapiro

The information in this book is kind of depressing but once you read it you can see the patterns in any job you have ever had. I can’t recommend it enough.

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[QUOTE=scullery]
I just signed up after lurking for over a month now because of this thread. Last year I was suddenly out of work and got a lot of advice…some asked for, some not so much. Anyway the most useful thing information was a book called *Corporate Confidential: 50 Secrets Your Company Doesn’t Want You to Know—and What to Do About Them * by Cynthia Shapiro

The information in this book is kind of depressing but once you read it you can see the patterns in any job you have ever had. I can’t recommend it enough.
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Any examples of the wisdom therein?

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[QUOTE=NightRabbit]
I tend to think this is a particularly valid statement, in that I’ve gotten feedback saying, “she’s too smart, she’ll be too bored in this job, it’s not a good fit”, for positions that were really attractive to me- stable, well-paying, good-hours jobs. Sometimes I DO think it would benefit my job prospects if I left my degree off my resume and talked about being a parent instead of an aspiring writer. :smack:

In response to teaching, I’m really a horrible misanthrope, and I hate children. I don’t think I have the personality for that kind of work. In the past, I’ve been very satisfied with repetitive, menial work. I have an active imagination so I don’t find it hard to entertain myself, I bring a crossword in case I get stuck sitting around, and making booklets all day beats doing telephone-surveys or working in a convenience store like I did during summers in college.
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This is probably a very valid statement.

When I left teaching (I taught college) I went to many interviews, but wasn’t getting hired. In return, I kept revising my resume making it look ‘more impressive’. Finally, at the end of the interview, someone was honest with me and said I was too overqualified for the position and that I should inquire with {div x} because they use well-qualified people at me (of course, that division wasn’t hiring). Excuse me? I don’t have hardly any experience in this field…how can I be overqualified?

This really opened my eyes. I went through my resume and it did really look kick ass. For my age, I had done many things.

I then dumbed it down. Took out/down-worded the empressive sounding stuff.

2 months later I was getting offers. Lesson earned…Looking impressive with little experience – BAD! Now, I would hype up my resume to the stratosphere…but it hurtme then.

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[QUOTE=NightRabbit]

In response to teaching, I’m really a horrible misanthrope, and I hate children. I don’t think I have the personality for that kind of work. In the past, I’ve been very satisfied with repetitive, menial work. I have an active imagination so I don’t find it hard to entertain myself, I bring a crossword in case I get stuck sitting around, and making booklets all day beats doing telephone-surveys or working in a convenience store like I did during summers in college.
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What this looks like to me is that you have skills, but don’t want a job that uses them particularly, but still want to be paid as a highly skilled person–A doctor working at a coffee shop is not going to be paid anymore because he’s a doctor. You seem to be looking at jobs that are in the “some college” skill range, which is a pretty saturated field. You might be much better off aiming a little higher at jobs that require skills that fewer people have–tech writing, maybe? That’s boring and repetitive but pays decently and there is a demand for it in many parts of the country.

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[QUOTE=acsenray]
Any examples of the wisdom therein?
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Yes. For instance:

Black listing does exist, it’s not your imagination.

HR is not in anyway there for you, they are there for the company.

Keep your personal life personal. What you say to anyone in the company can be used against you.

The law cannot protect your job.

The managing out of an employee.

79

Don’t get your panties in such a ruffle. That’s the standard New York experience. Welcome to the Gotham job market. When you get interviews if the subject comes up, talk about how you are looking for a stable job. Working at a single place for 1.5 years at your age is actually quite a long time. Most people recognize that. Also, there is a serious freelancing culture here. Good Programmers are hard to find, and a good CTO knows that. Sell yourself on your portfolio.

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[QUOTE=Fear Itself]
Well, there your reason right there! It is obvious you will not allow yourself to be shamelessly exploited, which means you lack the two most attractive qualifications for a good employee: low self esteem and no backbone. No wonder you get no offers.
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I’m going with this.