"Job Hopping" prejudice is ageism in disguise

[TokyoBayer]

@Cyberhwk

I’m going with this.

No fucking way. I don’t want a spineless assistant / office manager because then they get walked on by everyone else.

The first thing she did really wrong was to quit her first job before finding another permanent position. It sounds like the company wasn’t offering benefits to anyone, so it wasn’t a company with a lot of future. While it wasn’t the most money in the world, it was a job and she was getting experience. Who knows, maybe sticking at it for another 6 month or a year as she found a more ideal job could have worked out better.

I was just talking to a guy who is in the wrong job for him, and discussed the best way / timing to get into something more suitable. In his case, he’s not using Japanese in his job but wants to be more involved in Japanese business. We kicked around the merits and demerits of quitting sooner vs. later. (He’s doing a fine job now, so there isn’t anything wrong with staying around for a while.)

If the next job is longer then the first one doesn’t matter that much. My advice to this guy was to continue working on his Japanese on his own, and get involved in an NPO in the field he’s interested in, while keeping his eyes open for a job he prefers.

I’ve hired people who were overqualified, but it’s a gamble. There’s the risk that they’ll take the next job which more suitable. If you’re unlucky they get that next job two weeks after you hire them.

I usually ask outright why they are looking for something below their experience or education, and I’ve gotten lucky in the past when people who have been looking for something less stressful for a while, for example, and then worked for me for a couple of years. I got someone much smarter and more productive than what the position would normally attract, and she got a reduced work load from her previous job.

[jayjay]

@TokyoPlayer

The first thing she did really wrong was to quit her first job before finding another permanent position.

This needs to be emphasized. It is easier to find a new job if you’re currently employed. Just about every job center or resume-training course will tell you this. Employers want someone who’s prudent enough in their professional life to not jump ship before they have another ship to step over to. My worst times finding work were when I was already unemployed, after a layoff.

[Nava]

I would say NightRabbit has had two jobs. The office manager job and the temping job.

My own “job hopping” period was two years when I was working temp jobs as well as helping take care of Dad (cancer, he died in 2000). I got fired because the bitch of a boss who had greeted me with “let’s see how long you last” finally figured out I wasn’t going to leave (the record for fastest-leaver was 3 hours, I was there 11.5 weeks); I got fired because the work I’d been contracted to do was done; I got fired because the company got bought and the buyers said “fire anybody who doesn’t have a permanent contract” (one of the shift foremen had gone permanent two days before and been approved for his mortgage the day before the axe fell, poor guy almost had a heart attack). When I’m asked a “reason for leaving,” it’s always “end of contract.”

After all, a temp contract is always over at the end of the contract, isn’t it?

I’m now in a field where it’s common to hop; I get more questions about “how come you haven’t worked between October of last year and January of this” (because it was bloody time I got vacation) than about job hopping. But just a few years ago people still hadn’t gotten used to the idea that “the permanent job is over”… I answered “contract was over” many times.

[Little_Plastic_Ninja]

This has some darn good advice for me.

I’ve had six million temp jobs and I’m on my third-ever permanent job, and I’m 28.

First permanent job: well, ahem. Let’s just say the gaming industry can be the very definition of nepotistic and I’ve discovered just exactly how you can manage someone right out of their job. :mad:

Second permanent job: some wonderful people, but talking to nothing but ranting, shouting, cursing people for days on end while working for a company that told me flat out I was expendable got me job hunting. VP of Doom was fired, partly for that little comment, and the owner thought I was wonderful, but I’d already started interviewing for…

Third permanent job: Where I am now. I took a pay cut to get here and do more or less the same job I was doing at second permanent job. And while it’s not what I want to be doing the rest of my life, my bosses realize that nobody here wants to be a billing rep forever. They wouldn’t be working for… ah… this particular company if they did. And they give me pointers on getting the job they know I really want, but they’ve asked the question in my review:

“Where do you see yourself in the next six months to a year?”
“Right here, getting better at what I’m doing right now.”

But I had the opportunity at DreamJob, broken partly by my “job-hopping”. :rolleyes: Oh well.

By the way, if anyone knows about an apprentice game designer position, preferably around the Austin area… It’s one of the two things I’d consider leaving my current job for.

[Nava]

@NightRabbit

I tend to think this is a particularly valid statement, in that I’ve gotten feedback saying, “she’s too smart, she’ll be too bored in this job, it’s not a good fit”, for positions that were really attractive to me- stable, well-paying, good-hours jobs. Sometimes I DO think it would benefit my job prospects if I left my degree off my resume and talked about being a parent instead of an aspiring writer. :smack:

God, yes! Specially the “aspiring writer” part. That makes you sound “ambitious” (not what they want), “creative” (not what they want, and something certain people fear)… definitely not the kind of adjectives anyone would put in a request for a receptionist.

You want “reliable,” “steady”, “trustworthy”…

A receptionist who can figure out how to change the toner on her own is an asset. One that will come up with better ways to do it - should be working for Xerox.

[MsRobyn]

@NightRabbit

I tend to think this is a particularly valid statement, in that I’ve gotten feedback saying, “she’s too smart, she’ll be too bored in this job, it’s not a good fit”, for positions that were really attractive to me- stable, well-paying, good-hours jobs. Sometimes I DO think it would benefit my job prospects if I left my degree off my resume and talked about being a parent instead of an aspiring writer. :smack:

(emphasis mine)

And risk failing a background check or being fired for concealing material information? I wish I were overstating that, but I’m serious. Leaving off positive information like education is just as bad as leaving off negative information.

Robin

[Acsenray]

@MsRobyn

And risk failing a background check or being fired for concealing material information? I wish I were overstating that, but I’m serious. Leaving off positive information like education is just as bad as leaving off negative information.

Really? I mean, really? Employers claim the right to complete knowledge of your educational and employment history? I would have thought that it’s my choice to give them whatever information I believe is relevant to the job I’m applying for and answering any other direct questions they might put to me.

[Fear_Itself]

@MsRobyn

And risk failing a background check or being fired for concealing material information?

How is that worse than not getting hired in the first place?

[NightRabbit]

@Fear Itself

How is that worse than not getting hired in the first place?

Arghhh it would be SO much worse… if only on the psyche…

“You’re hired!”… “No, wait, you’re fired for not revealing your degree!” :smack:

[NightRabbit]

@Nava

God, yes! Specially the “aspiring writer” part. That makes you sound “ambitious” (not what they want), “creative” (not what they want, and something certain people fear)… definitely not the kind of adjectives anyone would put in a request for a receptionist.

You want “reliable,” “steady”, “trustworthy”…

A receptionist who can figure out how to change the toner on her own is an asset. One that will come up with better ways to do it - should be working for Xerox.

Funny, whenever I’ve fixed malfunctioning printers at my office jobs everyone treats me like the queen of sheba (for 30 seconds)

[zut]

@MsRobyn

(emphasis mine)

And risk failing a background check or being fired for concealing material information? I wish I were overstating that, but I’m serious. Leaving off positive information like education is just as bad as leaving off negative information.

Robin

Off your resume? Sorry, I don’t believe that.

[MsRobyn]

@acsenray

Really? I mean, really? Employers claim the right to complete knowledge of your educational and employment history? I would have thought that it’s my choice to give them whatever information I believe is relevant to the job I’m applying for and answering any other direct questions they might put to me.

Obviously, you can leave anything you want off a resume. But if the company wants to offer you a job and you have to submit to a background check, the company may well find out about it, or at least get enough information to be able to ask about it. “So, Ms. NightRabbit, your credit report says you have x dollars’ worth of student loans. What college did you attend, and what’s the degree in? And why didn’t you tell us about it?”

Robin

[Fear_Itself]

@MsRobyn

Obviously, you can leave anything you want off a resume. But if the company wants to offer you a job and you have to submit to a background check, the company may well find out about it, or at least get enough information to be able to ask about it. “So, Ms. NightRabbit, your credit report says you have x dollars’ worth of student loans. What college did you attend, and what’s the degree in? And why didn’t you tell us about it?”

What’s the worst that could happen? You don’t get the job? Which is why you left it off in the first place? On the other hand, maybe they don’t notice, you get the job and become successful, despite being overqualified. On balance, I would say omitting over-qualifications on a resume can only benefit the applicant.

[MsRobyn]

@Fear Itself

What’s the worst that could happen? You don’t get the job? Which is why you left it off in the first place? On the other hand, maybe they don’t notice, you get the job and become successful, despite being overqualified. On balance, I would say omitting over-qualifications on a resume can only benefit the applicant.

Or that you have an offer rescinded for failing the background check because you left off material information.

Robin

[Fear_Itself]

@MsRobyn

Or that you have an offer rescinded for failing the background check because you left off material information.

Right. Which is no worse than getting no offer at all because you are over qualified. I still don’t see the down side.

[MsRobyn]

:shrug:

We’ll have to agree to disagree. Suffice it to say, I’ve been in NightRabbit’s position but never found any good reasons and lots of bad reasons to leave stuff off.

Robin

[TokyoBayer]

This really depends on the job. When my sister and her (now ex-) husband were first married, he had just got his PhD and was looking work. In the mean time, he took a job at the local pizza place since they needed the money. He listed his education status as “student.”

I don’t think that NightRabbit was losing jobs because of her degree. I think it was talking about wanting to be a novelist while having a string of short jobs.

If she were to combine all the temps jobs into one, back off on the excitement of her future royalties, having a college degree from a nice school may not hurt that much.

Since those of us who have to interview can’t count on getting a straight answer to the questions we want to ask (“Will you stick around for three years?” “Sure!” – people would be stupid to not answer that) then we have to try to guess. It’s not an exact science, and you have to do the best with limited knowledge.

This is why you can get really stupid questions in interviews, since the interviewer is trying to assess your abilities, personality, capabilities, etc. with what they need. The old standards like, “Tell me about your greatest weakness” are attempts to read people. (And if anyone ever walks into an interview without a thought out answer to that one doesn’t deserve a job.)

Unfortunately, it becomes a game sometimes, and in that way it’s similar to dating.

I talked to a guy once who really helped me understand the process from the interviewer side. He would hire techs for a company in central Utah. He said he would look for people with an associate technical degree, and look for a GPA between 3.4 and 3.8.
Any lower and the person wasn’t trying. Any higher and the person wouldn’t be happy with the routine job he had for them. For an extreme example, you wouldn’t normally want to hire a graduate of law school for a data entry job, because she would be bored and quickly run off to a more suitable job.

That was that man’s philosophy. I have a more optimistic view of humanity. As I wrote earlier, I’ve gotten lucky hiring “over qualified” candidates but I think it requires a good connection with the person.

He also looked at the person’s hobbies, since it was rural Utah and someone whose was a season ticket holder to the symphony would go nuts there. He liked people who were outdoor types because they would love living five minutes away from some of the best desert and mountains in the nation.

If Rabbit were in Tokyo, I’d probably take a chance, and gamble that it’s going to take a few years for her literary career to kick in. During the mean time, I’d get a smarter, more motivated office manager than normal. I’d even agree to watch overtime to make sure that she had time to get back to her apartment and write. (She’d have to agree not to sexually harass me though, since my wife would never forgive it.)

I’ve turned down job hoppers. In my industry, and especially here in Tokyo, people should be expected to work for five or more years. There was a guy in his late 30s who hadn’t worked for a job for more than two years after his initial job (which was something like 6 years.) He found a job with one of our dealers, which came as a bit of a surprise to see him as my customer! Anyway, he worked for the dealer for less than two years and quit.

As mentioned above, we don’t primarily care about the past, we care about the future; but those of us without “God” on our name cards only have the past and present to base our decisions. If you think of what the interviewer is looking for, it may make your approach easier.

[Harriet_the_Spry]

Based on a lot of HR experience and training, you can leave stuff off a resume. You can’t leave it off an application that has a statement that you sign stating the information is complete and correct. Omitting or misstating information on such an application is frequently met with walking the employee out the door if it is discovered, even after hire. It needs a zero tolerance because many misstatements are serious–faked credentials or omitted jobs where the person left under criminal circumstances.

That said, I wouldn’t leave off a college degree. That would be overkill. Leaving off a couple of temp jobs on a resume is not a problem.

Don’t mention the aspiring writer thing. Don’t mention parenting, either. There is very little in an applicant’s personal life that helps their application or interview, except maybe a college sports loyalty shared with the boss. Express enthusiasm for the job and the company.

While it is true that employers often don’t hire their temps because of the fee to the agency, there are a couple of nuances to that.

• One is that the fee only applies for a certain period of time. So if any of your temp jobs from a while ago weren’t hideous, keep track of any openings they may have and apply. You already know a bit of their s.ystem, and they may welcome you back.
• Also, consider any vendors, competitors, or customers of the places you temped. You learned something useful about their business and may appeal to them as an employee.
• Finally, some organizations hire their own temps. Usually these are larger companies, government, universities. The fee for hire doesn’t apply for this kind of temping and is more likely to lead to a regular hire.

[jayjay]

I’d like to add, on the temp to hire thing, don’t try to negotiate your own hire behind your agency’s back. First, the company you’re temping at probably won’t go for it because of the penalties involved and it will poison your relationship with them. Second, YOU may be liable for penalties for trying to do it. As far as I know, all temp agencies have a non-compete type clause that prevents the client from hiring you AND prevents you from accepting an offer for a certain period of time after the temp contract ends. Trying to end-run around that is playing hopscotch in a legal minefield.

[Harriet_the_Spry]

Ooops, double post.