I was thinking of retired people. They don’t go insane. As well as stay-at-home spouses (who may or may not have kids to take care of)
These folks have socially acceptable reasons for not working. And in the case of the latter, they actually are working and earning a living. They just don’t get a 1099 for their taxes.
Someone in the prime of her/his life and able-bodied, without a job? If a person like this told me they weren’t looking for work because they’d rather live off the generosity of family and friends, I think I would have a hard time repressing the “What a loser!” thought, at least until they mentioned all the volunteer work they do in the community.
And I also admit that if I bumped into another person who told me they’d rather put all their effort in meeting sale goals rather than dating, my first thought wouldn’t be “What a loser!” I might think other negative things, but it wouldn’t be “loser”.
I might be biased a bit, given my own proclivities, but I don’t think I’m that much of a weirdo. I think most people prioritize self-sufficiency over relationships. It’s kind of hard to cultivate the latter when you don’t have the former.
On the first, I’m with Woody Allen on this one point (he’s also Douchebag, for starters, in general): I’d rather just live on in my house than in people’s memories. 
On your earlier analysis of Guy, of course he’s being a hypocrite to criticize Douchebag for bragging about his situation, then just competing with 'bag. We didn’t all read the actual posts, but I’m sure it would be less annoying if Guy in such a case could be a little self deprecating at least like, “maybe I’m just bragging like 'bag is, but…” And IME the overwhelming % of negative reactions on the internet to positive things going on for other people is sour grapes. Just like it always has been inside people’s minds, but the web breaks down barriers of politeness and shows more of the ugly inside people. Or maybe people have gotten nastier in the internet age, or some combination.
On defining success IMO the obvious answer is that everyone can do that for themselves. Just good luck changing other people’s definition.
Personally I at one time valued career highly, also tried to value family highly. Now I really don’t care how I’m remembered except as good husband, dad, brother (in law), (eventually I hope) grand dad, etc. ‘I’m a big success’ OTOH is just crass, always has been.
Relationships are more important to your self esteem and quality of life (although a certain basement level of poverty needs to be avoided serious quality of life damage if you are an adult). However neither is something most people are going to brag about consistently. If you are constantly bragging about your relationships, that is usually a sign your relationship (or your self esteem) has issues.
I’d side with the “job” crowd somewhat - plenty of people can get a relationship (even people like Charles Manson and the two Columbine High School killers had lots of female fans, for instance), while it’s very difficult to ascend to certain careers such as airline captain, astronaut or brain surgeon - which takes years and much education.
That being said, it is inane to brag about either - or to brag in general.
There are lots of stay at home spouses who could not be said to “work”. I understand that your typical stay-at-home mom (what we used to call a housewife) did the cooking and cleaning and the running around with the kids. And we should call that work. But there are folks who have housekeepers and nannies, and I wouldn’t say they “work”.
There are young, able-bodied people who have enough money and who don’t have to work. I know a few personally. AFAIK, they don’t typically go insane.
Emphasis added. I hear what you are saying, but I don’t think it works like that. We start forming relationships long before we can even be self-sufficient. As adults in the developed world, most of us get jobs to support ourselves, but we don’t do that independently of nurturing our existing relationships and forming new ones. At any rate, the relationships precede the self-sufficiency, so I don’t think the former is dependent on the latter.
I can’t think of a single thing that’s worth bragging about, personally. If I discovered the cure for cancer, I would be proud of myself and I probably wouldn’t be shy about talking about it. But I don’t think I could brag about it without feeling like a douchebag afterwards.
When you’re lying on your deathbed, do you want that to be in a well maintained facility with good-to-great care? Or do you want to be in your child’s guest room, while they’re worried about whether they’re going to be able to forestall foreclosure as caring for you has already sucked through your savings and their savings because they’ve to quit work in order to give you full time care - which they did, because they do love you?
I’m going to go with “job”. Because I believe your job is the primary method by which you decide to contribute to society. And I think most people want to be recognized as successful at whatever it is they decide to do for a living.
Relationships are also important. But I can’t really imagine deriving my self-worth from whether some woman likes me.
So you decided to be a bum?
I want the first option because I don’t want to die knowing I was a burden on everyone.
Crazy cat lady checking in now.
I have a good job and a nice home. I have a husband I love and who loves me. These things are important to me, but even before I had these things, even when I was homeless and sleeping in my car, I have always rescued stray cats.
Back then, it was one at a time, but now I have hundreds pass through my hands every year.
Will the cats remember me? Nope. Can I be replaced at my job? Oh yeah. Is my husband going to outlive me so he can grieve over my grave? Not likely.
I hand raise Monarch Butterflies and set them free for the Grand Migration. Do any of those beautiful creatures think twice about me? Do they even think? Is there anyone out there who sees one and thinks of me? Not at all.
Have I done anything to make a difference in the world? YES! Every single day, I add kindness and consideration to the world. I am spending my life doing what I want, which is to improve things in countless small ways.
My take on it is that it’s not what criteria you use to define a successful life but rather more of HOW you do those things. I’ve had all kinds of jobs and did them all well–some I liked better than others but mostly just jobs. Then I sat down and did the math and figured out I could support myself doing something I really love that I’d been doing as a hobby. Now I’m self employed doing something I’d do for free and I call that success.
I’ve had several husbands/husband-like partners and obviously none of them stuck around for the long haul but I have friends I’ve known for decades who I spend time with regularly and have all introduced to each other to make a really nice friend network that advantages all of us. I have friends who would help me move a body, no questions asked. I call that success.
So that’s my take–it’s taking the things that you must have in life like employment or interaction with other humans and maximizing how well you handle those things, how much happiness you can arrange for those to give you and how much good you put out to those around you and those you work for. That’s my metric.
False dichotomy. The choice is not: Have loved ones or be a penniless bum.
You can nurture good relationships and have a successful career.
I think a healthy balance of both career-identity (or “external life-identity”) and relationship identity is what would be ideal for successfully navigating life, IMHO of course. If someone puts all their value or identity into their relationship identities, then it seems very likely that the catastrophe of losing that relationship would be much more far reaching and deeply damaging, potentially at least, than for someone who at least temporarily could immerse him/herself into their career identities to mitigate the catastrophe of losing a personal relationship. (And vice-versa for the flip side).
A job where you contribute to the world and get properly compensated (in money or in satisfaction) is going to give you a lot more self-worth than a shit job you hate.
Likewise a loving relationship is going to give you a lot more self-worth than an abusive one.
So I think the question is not answerable in general.
I agree with that. A long time ago, a psychologist named Martin Seligman wrote a book called Learned Optimism, about what separates optimists (who are correlated with a lot of positive outcomes) from pessimists. It’s not optimism/pessimism in the traditional sense, but rather operationally defined. He narrowed it down to the ‘‘three Ps.’’
Personal - the extent to which one takes setbacks personally
Permanent - the extent to which setbacks are perceived as permanent
Pervasive - the extent to which setbacks are perceived as representing the totality of one’s life
Ambivalid’s comment addresses the 3rd thing. If you have a failure in your life but you can compartmentalize that failure and point to other successes going on in your life at the same time, you are less likely to get depressed.
As for me, I can’t help talking about the things I love. I’m effusive by nature. And I fucking love people. So I talk about relationships a lot.
I’ve been challenged for a long time to determine how I, personally, can best define my own success. I started with defining success academically because I excelled academically and that was a natural place to start. It was around graduate school that I figured out this wasn’t the end-all and be-all of successful existence. I left academia (and a high probability of admittance to a well-regarded Ph.D. program) because I realized at that point it was just about proving myself, and that wasn’t enough anymore. I felt much less comfortable in the professional sphere, because I had significantly less experience than in academia, so I had to build up my a new definition of success on those terms. I did not like being mediocre, but over time I fought my way to (my own personal definition) of excellent.
Being pregnant changed everything. We lost the baby, but it radically reorganized my priorities anyway. I realized success, for me, is less about the external achievements and more about the quality and substance of my everyday life. I went from highly career-driven to happily part-time and writing fiction during the other time. Shifting to part-time took a lot of personal stress off of me around navigating my mental health and other health issues, and it makes my husband happier, too, because I’m on top of things more at home, managing the finances, and happier. I’m very much looking forward to parenting, whenever that happens. My goals are more personal and internal, now, it’s hard to explain. I now have an active social life and a lot of other good things going. In the long run, I think what my definition of success came down to was the kind of person I want (and actively try) to be, and that feeds directly into who I am in my relationships.
If the people in my life make me feel simultaneously grateful for their existence and humbled by their awesomeness, I think I’m on the right track. It can’t be the only thing, but while I’ve achieved good things at work, I’ve also got times, due to mental health, that things just fall apart externally. In those cases, it brings me solace that the relationships in my life are worth being proud of.
ETA: If it’s not evident, I think everybody is entitled to work out their own definition of success. And I think that definition might change a lot over time.
I think so too. But I have to admit that sometimes I wish there was an objective standard–a rubric that you could use to prove to yourself that you’re someone worthy. I like the idea of everyone being a winner as long as they claim they are. But for some reason, I have a hard time really believing it. I guess I’m much too “Western” in my thinking.
IMO **Stranger **pretty well nailed it in post #2.
FWIW, here’s Bill Gates’ take on the topic from 2 years ago: The two Adams | Bill Gates
I think everyone must define their own metrics for defining their self-worth. What works for one person might not work for another. Making it even more complicated, in my experience, lots of people feel successful and accomplished (personally or professionally) but still aren’t happy and content.
Society does sort of have a general rule of thumb for determining worth. It’s income. People tend to define success by how much money they make. I think that’s about as close to an ‘‘objective’’ standard as we have.
And I reject it. Income can, in some ways, be indicators of desirable traits - stability, education, social acumen - but it doesn’t have inherent value to me.
Your friend’s response about his relationships reminds me a little bit of how I feel among my husband’s outrageously wealthy relatives. I interact with these people probably at least once a month in some or other formal setting. For me, a person who grew up lower-middle/working class, it feels like a costume party every time I show up to these events. I have to buy formal gowns on a regular basis, it’s a bit ridiculous. This culture feels like one long, perpetual brag. Some of these people are quite lovely, but for many of them, I know about their sad personal lives and how they abuse and mistreat others, and I don’t think they’ve ever experienced anything close to an authentic relationship. They are not successful humans regardless of the size of their house or the price of their car. One of them is hosting Christmas this year and we’re not going. Yes, this man is so successful that his relatives are concerned about the ethical implications of attending one of his parties.
When I am among these people, despite my own life problems, I feel like a fucking rock star. Fifteen years in a stable, loving relationship? Check. Friendships that don’t involve constant betrayal and competition? Check. Not hanging my entire self-concept on how good I look in a cocktail dress? Well… it’s a good thing I don’t. All around, I feel like the winner here. I’ve seen these people actively attempt to destroy other people’s loving relationships because they were so insanely jealous. Because infidelity and abuse are so much the status quo that they can’t stand the idea of other people having something better.
I don’t think this family represents all wealthy people by a long shot. But they are a good indicator of the problems that arise when success is defined only by wealth (or for women, sexual desirability.) I’m not saying my life is an endless font of happiness, but I’ve got my shit in order when it comes to how I treat other people. That’s ultimately become my gold standard for success.
I think your unemployed friend was speaking somewhat out of insecurity and somewhat as an active protest against how success is traditionally defined. I think, particularly in extreme cases like the above, this traditional definition is worth protesting because of how often it seems to perpetuate misery.
To** iiandyiii**'s point, one of the best epiphanies I ever had personally was the realization that I would never feel content. There’s always something that’s going to be causing anxiety, or embarrassment, or pain, or disillusionment. My brain is a perpetual story machine and the moral of every story is usually ‘‘not enough.’’ And when I can accept the status quo of discontentment, I suffer a lot less. Incidentally, we have a billionaire uncle who often pulls me aside to talk about how he’s found contentment by learning to accept that he’s always going to be miserable. It seems, despite wildly different circumstances, we more or less came to the same conclusion.