For me it’s job, actually, now that I think about it, it’s income. I can be quite happily single as long as I have a good job. I will fill my social needs by spending more time with friends in pubs. But I wouldn’t be happy in a good relationship with no job and no income. The income bit is important, I’d be happy to have no job if it was a choice and we had good income from somewhere, but I would not like being in a position of financial insecurity with no job.
Agreed with all of the others that regardless of how your self-worth is defined, bragging about it is not good.
Edit: I don’t think it’s a choice how we define our self-worth, it’s just part of our makeup.
We don’t agree very often, Corry El, but this time we’re kind of on the same page.
You’ve made remember this Cracked article: Five Ways You’re Accidentally Making Everyone Hate You, specifically the 4th way. And now I’m wondering if maybe Douchebag referenced in the OP was really a douchebag, or whether he just seems like one to Guy. Guy (understandably) may not want to hear yet another story about someone’s fabulous job since it reminds him what he doesn’t have. But he doesn’t stop and think how the lonely singleton feels about him gushing about his beautiful and loving wife. This doesn’t register as bragging to most people. It just seems like harmless pride.
I agree. But I also recognize how difficult this is. It is kind of hard to figure out what you could be doing without looking around to see what others like yourself are doing. And once you look at what others are doing, then it seems (to me, at least) almost automatic that you’d evaluate yourself against them.
How exactly am I a bum? Everything I have, I worked hard for. The traveling I’ve done was always preceded by a period of working two jobs and saving my money. How is that being a bum? Because I choose to spend my resources on things different than you? Seems an odd metric to me.
I wasn’t looking for a job with status, I wanted a job that would accommodate leaving to travel for months at a time. A trade off that worked for me. We’ve never bought a new car, rarely buy new furniture and often buy our clothing second hand. We live in a small house, not decorated like a magazine. Our lifestyle is small so we can afford what we value. Our choices to make, judge all you want. But we’re decidedly not bums, simply because we’ve avoided consumer debt and a lifestyle that is more mainstream.
I honestly tell my husband routinely that we are the richest people I know! (And we know a fair number of very wealthy, successful people!) We love the life we’ve built. Everyday. How is that anything but success?
I am never jealous of what others have. Fancy homes, cars, rolexes, cruises, it never crosses my mind. I am delighted for them all when they get what they want. Why wouldn’t I be? And I know they are happy for us. Isn’t that the nature of friendships? (I do admit feeling a little sad for people who’s happiness so clearly hinges on their social or economic status, because those things are constantly changing.)
I believe success comes from feeling happy. And happiness, I believe, comes from within ultimately.
I’m admittedly talking about some pretty extreme stuff. I could give you more examples but they get oddly specific. What I can tell you is that we have family events that cost more than the average wedding on a regular basis and I think it’s totally unnecessary. In this family, in particular, name recognition is hugely important to them, so they slather their names all over everything they can think of. Our (family) name is everywhere in this area and it’s weird because complete strangers think I’m a certain way and I’m not. My FIL manages the complex where I live, and one of my neighbors received a package for my husband. He said to me, as he dropped it off, ‘‘My wife said we should keep it because you guys can definitely afford the loss.’’
Like, seriously? We are not rich. Maybe the first clue is that we live in a fucking trailer park?* I said, ‘‘If your wife is really into action figures, I guess my husband would have been willing to part with one.’’ Because that’s what my husband spends his money on. Action figures.
I had a lot of issues in my 20s but entitlement was not one of them. I legally emancipated at age 17, worked full time to finish high school at the top of my class and got a full ride to a fantastic undergrad school. I’d be delusional to claim I ‘‘earned’’ being naturally talented at academics, but okay, I knew how to bust my ass when I had to. I had grit. My husband for all his advantages had a reasonable, non-entitled upbringing and then busted his ass through seven miserable years of graduate school. We never asked for anything from anyone, but sometimes we got stuff anyway, like over the years enough to shove into a nice retirement fund, and now we are 34 years old and I don’t have to work as hard anymore, and it freaks me out. This core part of my identity, self-sufficiency, has been lost. I’m never getting it back. I’ve had to figure out how to cobble together some new identity, one that’s more about community and relationships and being a good steward of our unearned privilege. I don’t know if I would trade it all back, because financial security is nice and increasingly rare. I don’t think we even could afford to adopt a child if we hadn’t had those advantages. But I still feel really ambiguously about this trade-off.
I was kind of half joking with a line from Pulp Fiction. Jules (Jackson) tells Vincent (Travolta) that he’s going to retire and “walk the Earth”. Vincent replies that “so you’re going to become a bum…because without a job, residence, or legal tender, that’s what you’re gonna be.”
I say “half joking” because I do kind of feel like one should pursue something other than a menial job that lets them goof off most of the day (ergo the term “beach bum”, “ski bum” etc).
Then again, I fucking hate my job. So what the fuck do I know? Maybe “hate” is the wrong word. It’s more like I can’t pretend to give a shit about corporate work anymore. At least not in the sense of a bunch of over-educated idiots spouting bullshit to justify their overpaid existence.
As I have, a residence, legal tender, and whenever I choose, a job, your point seems to not apply in any fashion.
And I’m not pursuing a life where ‘I fucking hate my job’, so clearly I’m spending most of my days ‘goofing off’? What’s wrong with you?
I don’t care how you earn your money, or how you choose to spend it, why are you deciding what I’m doing is somehow unworthy? Lesser for doing menial work.
I have spent my life, NOT waking to an alarm clock, I go to ballgames midweek if I so feel, and NOT working 50wks to get 2 off every year. I have never been a wage slave to a job I can’t afford to walk away from, chained by some imaginary need to earn/buy more next year. I don’t drive in rush hour, my commute has always been a short walk. I spent my life living in the reality that my employer won’t watch out for my interests, that’s on me. Watching others be crushed by living the delusion their company is different. I have worked hard doing honest work. Work that was valued sufficiently to provide for the needs of me and my family. I have never been chained to a job because I have consumer debts, my personal freedom traded in for a car or house.
These things didn’t just happen, I made them happen. Because I valued those things in life, above following the more mainstream path.
Our lifestyle also provided us the opportunity to take on the care for my bedridden stroke surviving MIL. Who required more care than you can possibly imagine. In our small home, a home we bought to be able to do so. For six long years. It was an great honour, and were we wage slaves we could never have undertaking such a thing.
But, sure, we’re just bums. Because we’re not on the same stupid path as someone who is hating his job.
Cuz haters gonna hate, that’s why. Miserable people have a hard time imagining that someone else could be happy, so they go out of their way to spread ugliness. Makes them feel better about themselves.
It wasn’t my intention for this thread to be their platform.
Thanks Monstro. I know you’re right. And I shouldn’t let someone like this get to me. I guess I’m just so accustomed to being fully accepted among the people I know, who would never dream to judge someone, anyone, in such a fashion, that I found it a titch shocking.
It might be that there is a fundamental problem with the concept of “self-worth”. Personally, I think anyone alive should feel they are worthy of being alive. I wouldn’t want to have to do anything to prove my “worth”.
Maybe a better question* would be to ask about self-fulfillment, which is a different concept. I have probably been thinking of that, instead of “self-worth”, all along. If I were to restrict myself to the idea of self-worth and nothing more, I’d probably say: I wouldn’t define my worthiness to just be in terms of anything since I’m already here.
*And I apologize to monstro if that is a hijack. Consider it just a thought, and not an attempt to redirect the thread.
The stuff I bolded is also pretty judgmental. Live your life: I don’t care. I’m totally cool with my own. But I do value a certain amount of comfort and stability and I avoid risk. I also, personally, get really fucking bored with entertaining myself: I need to build things, shape things, change the world in some way. Being smug aboug “wage slaves” and calling more traditional people "deluded"about the things that give them purpose and meaning doesn’t make you look enlightened: it looks like snobbery.
From your post, you gave the impression that you just sort of roamed around like some kind of drifter. Perhaps working odd jobs for a bit of spending cash.
But you say you have a residence, some money, and a job. And you say you work hard doing honest work.
If you have a residence, you have to pay rent or a mortgage.
If you have a job, you presumably have an employer unless you are self employed (in which case you still have clients).
And if you work hard, you must get some combination of satisfaction from your work and a sense of needing to maintain a lifestyle choice.
So what makes you different from me?
There are places where you can buy some sort of residence for tens of thousands of dollars–for an amount a person could pay cash for, especially if they got a moderate windfall from an inheritance or a settlement.
I’m not monstro, but I wouldn’t view that as a hijack at all. You’re right that self-worth is something that (hopefully) everyone has, and it shouldn’t be something that has to be demonstrated in some way.
I think I was glomming on to the word “successful,” rather than the actual “worth” part.
No windfall, no inheritance. We bought our house just like everybody else. But we bought a very small house we could very easily afford.
And no, I’m not being judgmental at all. Go back and reread it, I simply explained why **I **made the choices **I **did. And in my mind if someone can’t afford to walk away from a job, in some sense that’s a wage slave. And when consumer debt keeps someone chained to a job they fucking hate, they have kinda have traded their freedom for a car, house or designer clothes. I stated these as my perceptions that lead me to make the choices I’ve made, not a judgement of your choices. I was pretty clear, I think. I’m not being smug, I’m simply describing what I see and find unacceptable in the mainstream.
I have nothing but respect for people who live and work in the 9-5 trenches, the world clearly needs plenty of them. They have my undying admiration as they are doing something I never could. I do not judge them harshly, but stand in awe of their fortitude. It’s just not who I am.
I don’t find your personal choices an indictment of mine, they’re just your choices. And I don’t find your reasons for making those choices judgemental because they differ from my perspectives. They are your reasons/perceptions and need only be clear and applicable for you.
And yes, I find satisfaction in hard, honest work. But it’s only to gain me what I truly value! It’s just a tool for me, nothing more. I’m not looking for more from my job. My life is rich and full of adventure and new experiences, and that’s what I want. An elevated title, climbing to the top of the ladder, these things would be entirely empty for me, I’m just not made that way is all. It’s not a crime or a character flaw it’s just a difference.
(Msmith537, if you don’t see, after reading my posts, how we are different, I doubt I can explain.)
It’s a perception of mine, not a judgment of anyone else. They aren’t really slaves, I perceive them as being slaves, because, like a slave they lack freedom to make any other choice. Not sure why this is so hard for you to understand, to be honest. I was simply sharing what I see, MY perception. It’s not right or wrong, it’s just MY perception.
Self-worth and self-fullfillment are related. But they aren’t the same thing. If someone has a burning desire for X,Y, and Z and can’t obtain it, they aren’t going to feel fulfilled. They aren’t going to feel complete. They will likely feel frustrated, maybe bitter. But their self-esteem isn’t necessarily wrecked. Meanwhile, someone could have achieved what they want in life but still feel worthless or “not as good”. I’m thinking of someone who was bullied for being a loser in high school, who grows up to be CEO of his own company just to “show them”…but deep down he still believes he’s a loser.
I went through a long phase where I had pretty crappy self-esteem. If I had to distill the cause down to one thing, it would be the lack of something to write home about that really felt like the manfestation of me. Yeah, I had an advanced degree, but advanced degrees are a dime a dozen in the circle I travel in. Yeah, I had a “good” job. But a “good” job isn’t that miraculous for someone who has been nurtured and prepped like I have been. Yes, I had a loving family (parents, siblings). But I didn’t do anything to earn them, so what is the point of bragging about them? I felt like an invisible nobody, even though it is true everyone should feel worthy by virtue of being alive.
But during this phase, I didn’t have any unmet dreams or aspirations. It’s not like there was anything I was longing for that would have made everything better. I wasn’t bored or especially empty. I just felt like a loser because I didn’t have anything that made me feel particularly proud of myself.
Without reading other responses (didn’t want to color my answer) I would say “neither”. I have a good job and a good family life - wife, kids, grandkids. All of these bring me great pleasure. OTOH, all of them could be lost in an instant. It would devastate me, of course, but it wouldn’t change my fundamental view of myself. Basing one’s self worth on any external measure is like building a house of cards. Any puff of wind is liable to send it all crashing down.
In large part my sense of self worth is part of, or due to, my religious views. Even setting that aside, though, it is still internally driven and based on doing the “next right thing”. If I can’t end world hunger, the “next right thing” may be to feed a homeless person. To oversimplify, my self worth is validated every time I do, to the best of my ability, the right thing. When I fail, as I will, it causes self reflection. When I atone appropriately for not doing the right thing, it again validates my self worth. Some may view it as “integrity”. It’s something no one can take away from me, except me myself.
Yeah, I get it. I just think there’s a bit of a fine line between a “laid back job that affords me the ability to live a full, rich life out of work” and a “mediocre dead end job where no one cares what, if anything I do”, if that makes sense.