There’s no proof that John is genuine, yet you claim he is. What qualified scientific studies have you put forth? Have they been bias?
As someone else pointed out, John Edwards has a disclaimer at the end of his show. That pretty much wipes away any legal case of fraud (as far as I’m aware). So why would anyone go seeking him out to disprove him, specifically ? Other posters have provided you with a thorough “debunking” of the methods that Edward’s uses, but you give them no credit. You just brush them aside.
Why do you believe Edwards? If you have any studies on him specifically , I would love to read them. If you don’t, I still want to know why you believe him?
Also, do you believe every psychic/speaker with the dead? If you don’t, which ones do you not believe and why?
I’m just curious about this last line of questioning, by the way. I’d like to see this issue from your side*.
*Good lord, I was almost going to write from the other side , without realizing what the implication of it!:o
The companies are the scientists, they started the thing in the first place, who else could have done it, scientists develped the pills and sold them. I worked at a hospital for several years, saw all kinds of schemes used by doctors to get more money. It was common for them to allow their doctor friends to sign their patients charts so they could claim a fee.
I don’t need to believe anything and you don’t know anything, you have no proof, understand that, you have no proof. You won’t even follow your own science rules on proof, you have no proof.
What we have here is an artificial, man-made belief system called science, or the scientific method, it is a limited system with rules and regulations about what can be called truth, proof and so forth. It’s adherents believe it totally, so they can be one of the scientists.
Now, the system is believed to be infallible by its devotes, the final word in reality. However, since it is an artificial, man-made belief system it is fallible. There are things it can never understand and spirituallity is one of them.
The system has no provisions for knowing anything beyond the physical, or in the realm of feelings and intuition, which the artifical system of science denies is important.
So, hey, fellows, forget it, you will never understand psychics and such things until you remove your limitations and expand your minds to include the whole world, not just the part you believe in.
Please forget about NDEs, ESP, Psychics and all spiritual phenomenon. There are no tools in your closed belief system to address them, so they must be labeled false. I understand.
lekatt, you are being bombarded with posts, so I understand if you can’t respond satisfactorily to all of them. Them problem is that you aren’t responding satisfactorily to ANY of them.
—Impartial tests need to include observers from both sides, that is the normal way it is done.—
You haven’t actually read the challenge: you’ve only read what Zammit has shown you. The challenge is designed to the mutual agreement of both parties so that the result is unambiguous and requires no subjective judging.
—There has been no real proof shown here of John fraud or anyone else’s.—
John’s appeal rests on his claim to speak to the dead, and the plausibility of his claims rest entirely on the idea that there is no other explanation for what he is doing. (otherwise YOU prove that the dead are actually speaking to him, as you and he claim) As has been pointed out time and time again: there ARE explanations for what he is doing that fit EXACTLY his particular tactics and results. For goodness sakes, John’s “advice to audience members” could have been lifted from “how you want your audience to act for best results with cold reading.”
----You demanded cites from me on the NDE thing and I give you qualified scientific studies, which you trashed, you give me opinions nothing more.—
Hello? We explained, in detail, why the far-reaching conclusions of those studies were not supported by their data or even their design. You just kept sputtering that they were scientific studies (in most cases, not even), they were vaguely on NDE, they said things you liked, and so that proves the NDEs are proof of life after death. But it doesn’t work that way. If it did, anyone could manufacture proof of anything. The proof is in the pudding, not in the title.
—So, hey, fellows, forget it, you will never understand psychics and such things until you remove your limitations and expand your minds to include the whole world, not just the part you believe in.—
Okay… but with your standard of proof, anything could be considered true, with no evidence other than personal interpretation whatsoever.
This science which you disparage, has dragged us out of the dark ages and other eras of ignorance.
Its not a matter of belief.
It isn’t meant to have all the answers, though it tries. But making up shit about afterlives and the like is a much worse choice.
The scientific method has lead to a life that is comfortable enough for you to have the time to post on your computer to a bulletin board system.
Mmmmmm, sour grapes lekat?
If science has discarded psychics, it is not for lack of looking. Plenty of experiements have been performed over the ages to find such events. Sadly, the results, when controlled, have shown a negative. Life goes on.
So go live in your world of hiding from the shadows, faries, goblins and lcuk charms. Your dreams are those of a world of superstition and ignorance, led by a few self-chosen “priests” whose sole job it is to keep the rest of the world scared with trickery and lies. Enjoy your world of living in caves, hiding from your shadow, for this board is devoted to fighting ignorance, not spreading it.
Science has given us wonders undreamed of…through hard work. Your spirit world has given us nothing but the promsie of a quick buck for the unmotivated rogue.
Developed the pills, yes. After that is where others are invovled. Very few scientists set prices. Yes the companies couldn’t exist without the scientists, but that hardly means the guy in the research lab is respobsible for the price over the counter.
Whatever else may happen in this world with greed, at least the doctor will treat your illness, no matter what he does illicitly to extend the fee. If the doctor worked the way psychics do, he would take your money, make you sleep in the street, and throw a glass of water in your face.*
Again, you invoke the Tu Quoque fallacy.
*Note, this treatment is sometimes known as homeopathy.
Good grief, lekatt, science is not a belief system. What you have is a belief system, in which you begin with the belief and throw out any evidence that doesn’t fit with your pre-conceived idea. Quite the contrary, science is a system of acquiring knowledge by testing premises. Scientists do start with a hypothesis, but they throw it out when evidence cannot be found to support it or when evidence directly contradicts it.
Science made possible the computer on which you post your superstition. Without science electricity would still be nothing but lightening bolts, the manifestations of some deity’s anger. The air would still be the domain of the birds, and even the contemplation of human flight would be a sin. Scientists are responsible for the fact that you probably live in a house instead of a cave. Belief never made humankind advance. On the contrary, belief kept people in darkness until scientists like Galleleo put out the word that the earth was not the center of the universe. Belief (in the form of the Catholic Chiurch) forced him to recant, but it was too late. Knowledge had been released into the world.
By the way, your telling Meatros and Czarcasm to “go to - - - -” (clever how you avoided actually saying where they were to go, you li’l dickens you ) seems to descend (if I may indulge in a little pun) to the level of jerkitude more appropriately reserved for the Pit than used in GD. (The Pit…hmmmm…another pun?) It makes your sign-off “love” on several other posts seem disingenuous, if not downright hypocritical.
Anyway, the OP’s question was whether the actions of people like JE were ethical. I think we get it by now that you think they are.
The companies are not the scientists. Scientists are employeed by companies. Scientists do not sell the pills, the companies do. Doctors are not scientists, they are doctors.
Where’s a real scientist like Ben, when you need him?
Are there any scientists reading this discussion? If there are, can you set either Lekatt straight, or me straight, in regards to who sets the prices on pills. I think it’s a trivial issue, regardless of the outcome, I just don’t want to waste anymore time on it.
First off, as you’ve been told before, it’s not a belief system. Listen to DesertGeezer and his defenition, I think it’s pretty good.
Also, it’s not believed to be “infallible”, as I’ve told you in another post, scientists constantly check and recheck each other’s work. That is hardly the final word. I mean, if science is a belief system, can you tell me what other belief system changes the fundamental beliefs about the world? If you go back several thousand years, you will find spontanious generation, leaches to cure diseases, the earth being the center of the universe…etc.
Can you name another “Belief” system that changes as much?
Look, if you want proof that Edward and his ilk are frauds, but won’t accept the scientific approach to achieve said proof, I don’t think any of us have anything further to say to you. Your opinions on psychics(and life after death) don’t seem to be open to debate and are certainly not backed up by anything the real world can call facts, so why in the hell are you even posting in Great Debates?
I use my whole self when looking for answers. My feelings, intuition, logic, knowledge, as well as the normal five senses.
This method may not be understandable to the pure scientist.
I have compassion for those who choose the system of science.
If one truly believes that his appearance here on planet earth was by some random accident and that he will die to nothingness, then he has no higher guide or intelligence to turn to for council. It seems his life is pointless. He must choose the meaning and purpose of his life as well as what ethics or morals will be accepted. The problem with this is it could lead to a cold, calculating, cruel individual. In the name of science unspeakable horrors are visited on helpless animals and on humans when the opportunity presented itself, as in war. Since science doesn’t believe in the sacredness of life, as one poster put it “we are only meat,” almost anything could be done in the name of science.
So if you should find yourself at a dead-end, in a dark place, remember your inner senses have all the answers to any question you may ask. Turn the direction of your life over to that truth within you, and if successful it will lead you out of the darkness into the light.
I did want to say to you Lekatt, I am interested in seeing your board/website. I’m not going to try to stir up trouble or anything, but I would like to see more from your side*. It may, or may not, change my opinion, but it would give me a broader understanding.
*I’m assuming there are many people on the web-board who have had experiences.
Feynmann wrote about people like Lekatt. He once was admiring a flower when an artists came up to him and said that Feynmann could not appreciate the flower since he was a scientist. Ergo he looked upong hte flower as an object to be studied, nothing else.
Feynmann laughed, and told him that this was nonsense. Just becasue he knew about the parts of the flower, the life cycle, the nature of the chemical reactions within the flower, etc, this did not mean who could not admire it for its color, its smell, and its overall beauty.
Why is it that some think that those who adhere to the scientific method are people to be pitied, as if we walk around with only half of our aesthetic selves activated at any time. Its nonsense, and condescending nonsense at that. Scientists do not have blinders on their feelings and reactions, and it is absurd to think so.
Lekatt you epitomize the hypocrtical newager. He speak in platitude of love and peace, but when your tenets are questioned, the nasty streak come out in full force.
I don’t think theres any way to really find out if John Edward is psychic or not. But I was actually watching the show the other day and I got to thinking, what if he really is psychic, but he doesn’t really talk to the dead, he just can sense things that the person might think that their dead friend or relative might be saying. Now if this was the case, and he really was psychic, he might not even know what hes reading, he might think hes talking to the dead. He also could know and in that case he would be a bad person, because that would mean that when he throws in all that stuff that the people don’t understand hes just garnishing his statement to make himself look like hes talking to the dead rather than to the person’s mind. But anyway, I don’t know if hes psychic or not, nor do I really care. As for those who pay money for psychics and stuff, whatever, they should be living out life how they want to live it, so if thats what they want go for it. Its not like hes coercing them them to come give him money, they are making that choice. Then again (indecisiveness factor kicking in) if you’re grieving severely and you really miss a person, perhaps it isn’t right that he is taking advantage like he is. Uh… yeah, so I’m gonna leave it like that, because I’m thinking way too hard right now and I don’t want to ramble any further than I already have.
Although a scientist, I have a great deal of respect for this position. As Mr. Miskatonic pointed out, being a scientist does not mean one cannot appreciate abstract, intangible or spiritual issues. In this case, I don’t believe in the same things you do, but I understand and encourage those who do to use them to their benefit. What I don’t get is how your philosophy of relying on guidance from a higher power or an internal truth would in any way be supportive of a guy on television going “I’m getting a Daniel? Danny? Dave? He was a carpenter? Car repairman? Come on, you’re just being psychically amnestic!” How is this beneficial to reliance on your own internal truth or a higher power?
Hey lekatt: I turned to my inner senses, and they told me that you should send me 50$: it’s what I truly, deeply desire. You should know the address already, or you can just read my postal aura.
You are welcome to come anytime. There are over 150 NDEs on the board and a few other kinds of spiritual experiences. You can post on the forum, there are subjects for all. My email address is everywhere.
) seems to descend (if I may indulge in a little pun) to the level of jerkitude more appropriately reserved for the Pit than used in GD. (The Pit…hmmmm…another pun?) It makes your sign-off “love” on several other posts seem disingenuous, if not downright hypocritical.