Again, making a speech was probably a good thing for him to do at this point. Did you really want him to broadcast something to all civilian pilots about watching out for hijackers? Remember that in you own post you said it took several minutes for the flight controller to inform flight 93. How would an order from the president (who would not have given such an order anyway no matter who he was) have helped?
Yea, I’m getting to you. You guys are so worked up about this you just have to gang up on me. No problem. But I may take a couple hours to get back to you.
Given the absolutely unusual nature of the attack, what makes you think this question would have been asked by anyone except someone in the position Ed Ballinger found himself in that morning. Did anyone anywhere in government suggest this sort of action other than him?
Just so we are clear on this, I am no more apologizing for President Bush than you are apologizing for Senator Kerry. Apologies are not exactly appropriate.
No, but If I were the president with cameras all around and in the presence of children, I might have finished what I was in the middle of. It depends a little on whether or not I trusted those around me to let me know if there was some order that had to come from me or something.
Not a potshot. I did not mean it in a mean or derogatory way. I am simply not used to having so many questions asked of me in such a short period of time. I did not mean anything bad by this.
You actually think he waited because he wanted his people to get more information? Did the guy that whispered in his ear say something like “we need more time to get more info,” or anything like that?
Why is it so hard to admit he could have been just a bit quicker to get on top of the situation. It’s not the end of the goddamn world. It doesn’t make Bush a terrible president. These contortions to defend such a minor failure are embarrassingly pathetic. It’s not a big enough deal to warrant these stretches.
Ok, but again, what could President Bush have done himself? Are you really sure that the Secret Service would not have whisked him out the door if they felt it necessary? Do you really think that President Bush should have second guessed that decision?
Yes, he could very well have run around like a chicken with his head cut off. Would these questions have made any difference?
Perhaps I’m missing something, but I thought this was done.
He was more than ready for such a thing. After all, he was not out playing hooky. He was just in the next room from the mobile command center, or whatever they call it.
I disagree entirely. Many of you would have criticised him for issueing the wrong orders, interfering with the information gathering that was going on, or perhaps for not leaving the room soon enough. If you can make a case for profound incompetence out of 7 or 10 minutes, why not 2 or 5?
But he did know that his people were gathering information and that they would contact him if anything “presidential” needed to be done.
Sigh, I was wondering how long it would take for the captain analogy to come up. If you really want to hash through this again, fine, but suffice it to say that there are vital things a captain cannot do except from the bridge of his ship. This is not true of the President of the United States. Can you name one thing President Bush could have done only from the other room?
[QUOTE=Marley23]
The job of the aides is to (dig this) AIDE the President. They are supposed to provide him with information.
[QUOTE]
Quite so. They have to gather that information first, no?
Quite possibly, yes. Seriously try and put yourself in the shoes of those aides. You are frantically calling whoever you have to call to get a clear picture of what is going on. Meanwhile, the President is standing over you asking “Did you call Dick?” “Is Laura OK?” etc. etc. etc. It could have been quite the impediment.
Yes, it is comforting to think that everything was explained fully and in a reliable way on the telivision at 9:10 that morning. The truth, however is that it was not. The news media were rampantly speculating as they always do. Meanwhile the government workers all over the country were doing jobs they never thought they would be asked to do. And doing them with extreme bravery, I might add. They were playing WAAY outside the box and doing so with exemplary wisdom.
Am I wrong to see the office of President of the United States as requiring more than leading when you’re told to lead? Am I wrong to want a President who gets actively involved in a crisis situation so he can give those President-only orders when he thinks (on the advice of his aides) that they are necessary, rather than when his aides tell him they’re necessary? What, exactly, is the function of the President? Is he simply there to hire the people who will lead, and to sign paperwork when they put it in front of him?
Really, all it would have taken for me to be satisfied would be the whispering about the attack to be back and forth, something along the lines of this:
Aide: A second plane hit the WTC. America is under attack.
Bush: Are you looking into it? How much information do you have?
Aide: We’re still gathering information.
Bush: Okay, I’ll wrap this up and be right in.
But Bush was told that the country was under attack, and just sat there. I don’t know anyone else in the country who didn’t look for more information when they found out about the attack. How is it acceptable for the leader of the country to be the one person who assumed someone else would figure it out???
Honestly? I think he waited because he was in the middle of something, and wanted to finish. He was “Acting presidential”. Unfortunately we expend a lot of energy in America on how “Presidential” our politicians act.
That is an excellent question. Why is it so hard to admit?
Agreed. This is exactly what made the OP funny. What made the reaction to it funnier. And why you still don’t get the joke.
Seriously, I’m laughing my ass off. This is the funnest thread I’ve participated in all year.
I tnink this is the point that the partisans are missing. Everyone, from the Moories to the Bushers to the Kerrymanders wants to use stuff like this to say “The Other Side is WRONG! (and stupid!).”
On that day I sat around, stunned, unable to think, unable to believe what was going on.
It’s a natural reaction.
Kerry was being human. Bush was being human. They were doing what was very human, being shocked at an atrocious act.
Yup. I’m sure they were on it, but might he have asked them if they knew anything else at that time? Could he have thought of some specific things he’d like to know, or is his role as President totally redundant?
Not only are those things part of your job to find out, it seems to me that this plays into the ‘Bush didn’t need to know or do anything’ theory, since you’re saying he’d have only been an obstruction to his aides.
True true. Best not to find out what they were saying, I suppose, and read the book about the goat. The President couldn’t have done anything helpful, he’d have just gotten in the way.
Right. Except for the guy in charge. He had other things to worry about.
So if I take your analogy, Mr Kerry was in a loge, watching highlight reels, preparing for a World Series with the Yankees three years in the future?
Exactly. And based on your baseball analogy, it seems if you’d been in possession of a split-screen of smoldering tower and a rendition of Bush on Tush, you’d have been picking up a new TV on the 12th.
I am trying to express the possibility that this story’s been inflated by personal outrage. Namely, the outrage of individuals in the Press who were privy to this simultaneous viewing. The juxtaposition of attack and inaction, as the events unfolded, was undoubtedly a lot to take in.
I think I’ll give this a pass this time around. Last time there were just a few willing to face ridicule for daring to point out that the President should have acted presidential. I guess now that Kerry has criticized the President the issue is safe enough for mainstream Democrats on the board to discuss.
Given that the threat was from hijacked commercial airliners, your response is a bit over the top. All commercial jetliners would have sufficed.
Because it could have started 14 minutes sooner. Yes it took several minutes for Ballinger, acting alone and on his own volition, to get the message out. He began at 9:19, taking 5 minutes to get to flight 93. Seven minutes later, he was asked for clarification of the warning. Nine minutes later, the hijackers attacked. What if they had 14 minutes to prepare. Given that the crew of hijackers (4 on 93, IIRC) were able to keep the doors closed to the passengers, it seems likely that the flight crew may have been able to do the same.
No. You asked what question/action Bush could have conceivably asked or taken that would have made a difference. I gave you one. We won’t know if this would have occurred to Bush or not because he did not put himself in the position to come up with it or not. It isn’t implausible that he would have. You say “too many cooks spoil the broth,” I say “If he’s not being part of the solution, he’s being part of the problem.”
You asked for one thing Bush could have done. One such thing is simply that Bush could have commanded that such a warning go out immediately.
Yes, if you think that teh seven minutes we are talking about prevented President Bush from doing this.
Actually, yes. He has some more direct roles to play when certain larger issues are at stake. Before we launch a major offensive, he probably has to issue orders, or give the word, or push the button, or whatever. But in terms of defending the nation much more things happen whether he is alive or not. I agree that the incidents of 9-11 are extremely unique. But this means that it should have taken him more time to react, not less.
How much of that do you know for a fact did not happen? Even taking into account that such an exchange would have been out of earshot of the kids and press. They would have wanted it to not even appear on his face in any way.
Because he was the only one who needed to make calm and rational decisions. At least of those you are talking about. He was the one with his finger, literally, on the button.
I remember when I watched the second plane hit the towers. My first thought was “Those poor bastards.” I was thinking of whoever had orchistrated the attacks. My second thought was “Their damn lucky I’m not president.” I would have nuked first and asked question later. Seriously. I’m not being overly dramitic. I remember thinking that we could use some large mirrors in central Asia anyway. That sort of visceral reaction. But notice the difference. I had a visceral irrational reaction to the attacks and the attackers. You guys are so caught up in Bush Bashing that you have a similar reaction to reading with kids for 7 minutes. Once again, very funny.
At that time, for those few moments, yes, it was. He was not needed for any command decisions. He was not needed for any message to the nation. He was simply needed to read a couple books to some kids.
Well, to be accurate, I said he could have been a hinderance. Perhaps there was some role he could have played wich would have helped. If so, please for the love of gosh tell me what it would have been.
For those seven minutes, yes. And if there had been anything that needed presidential attention, they would have notified him.
Yes, actually, he did. That is why our system works as well as it does. We put great faith in the ability of individuals to accomplish things. They don’t wait for orders from on high. And, so, in some instances, orders from on high can come too late, or be based on old information, making it less than useful.
Not if I got you to say this.
No time, typing as fast as I can. Perhaps I need a class reading a goat book?
The joke was told rather crudely. But that is not why all of you are failing to “get” it.
