How dare you, Sir. How dare you defile this fine, upstanding thread with the needless poison of sarcasm.
Clearly you are not fit for the civilized discourse until you can show the same polite, respectful demeanor of character assassins.
Gooday, Sir. Gooday!
I just realized that this could be ambiguous. What I meant was: short, to the point, and false.
Sorry, but it’s still ambiguous. What is it you are saying is short, to the point, and false; Blalron’s assertion that
or history as it is generally disseminated in America?
I’m not really trying to posit it as an excluded middle fallacy; if you meant both, feel free to so state.
“The Swift Boat Vets for Truth include the entire chain of command above Kerry: Lt. Commander Grant Hibbard, Lt. Commander Elliott, Captain Charles Plumly, Captain Adrian Lonsdale USCG (retired) and Rear Admiral Hoffmann (retired), as well as enlisted men, officers, men who served with Mr. Kerry, men who served in the same group of Swift boats and men intimately familiar with the operations and conduct of Swift boat operations during the war.”
Senator Kerry
We write from our common heritage as veterans of duty aboard Swift Boats in the Vietnam War. Indeed, you should note that a substantial number of those men who served directly with you during your four month tour in Vietnam have signed this letter.
It is our collective judgment that, upon your return from Vietnam, you grossly and knowingly distorted the conduct of the American soldiers, marines, sailors and airmen of that war (including a betrayal of many of us, without regard for the danger your actions caused us). Further, we believe that you have withheld and/or distorted material facts as to your own conduct in this war.
We believe you continue this conduct today, albeit by changing from an anti-war to a “war hero” status. You now seek to clad yourself in the very medals that you disdainfully threw away in the early years of your political career. In the process, we believe you continue a deception as to your own conduct through such tactics as the disclosure of only carefully screened portions of your military records. Both then and now, we have concluded that you have deceived the public, and in the process have betrayed honorable men, to further your personal political goals.
Your conduct is such as to raise substantive concerns as to your honesty and your ability to serve, as you currently seek, as Commander-in-Chief of the military services.
It is vital that the American public have as much information as possible about candidates for President of the United States. In various ways, you have rightly called upon President Bush to be fully accountable and to provide full disclosure. In the same spirit, now that you are the presumptive nominee of your Party, we believe it is incumbent upon you to make your total military record open to the American people.
Specifically, we the undersigned formally request that you authorize the Department of the Navy to independently release your military records (through your execution of Standard Form 180), complete and unaltered, including your military medical records. Further, we call upon you to correct the misconceptions your campaign seeks to create as to your conduct while in Vietnam. Permit the American public the opportunity to assess your military performance upon the record, and not upon campaign rhetoric.
Senator Kerry, we were there. We know the truth. We have been silent long enough. The stakes are too great, not only for America in general but, most importantly, for those who have followed us into service in Iraq and Afghanistan. We call upon you to provide a full, accurate accounting of your conduct in Vietnam.
Respectfully
Look Mr. Moto, all the nitpicking in the world over whether or not kerry threw medals or ribbons or how much he deserved his purple heart takes away from the fact that while Bush was busy defending the Texas skies from the Vietcong, Kerry was actually out into the shit and getting shot at.
Roy Alexander
Kenneth J. Andrews, Lt.
Dan V. Armstrong, BM2
Ray Lewis Ballew
Alexander Bass
George “M.” Bates
Richard Beers
Paul L. Bennett, Cdr., USN
Edward J. “Lord Mort” Bergin, Capt., USNR Ret.
Henry “Buddy” Berman, QM2
Barry Bogart, EN2
Bob Bolger Cdr., USN Ret.
M.T. Boone
David Borden
Vern Boyd
David M. Bradley, LCdr.
Robert “Friar Tuck” Brant ,Cdr. USN (Ret.)
Kenneth Briggs
Carlyle J. Brown , EN2
Kenneth “Buck” Buckholz, GMM3
Michael C. Burton
Joe Cahill, Jr., Lt.
Jack L. Carlson, Lt., USNR
Billy Carwile, EN3
Jack Chenoweth
William Colgan, RD3
Bill Collins
Daniel K. Corbett, Lt., USNR
James M. Corrigan, QM3
Terry Cosstello
John H. Davis, Lt.
William K. Daybert, Cdr.
James Deal
John Dooley, Cdr., USN, Ret.
Dale Duffield , BM1, USN, Ret.
Robert G. Elder, Lt.
George M. Elliott, Capt. USNR, Ret.
Wallace Benjamin Foreman, QM1, USN, Ret.
William T. Ferris, Capt. USNR, Ret.
William E. Franke, LT.jg
Robert L. Franson, BMCS (SW)
Alfred J. French, III, Capt., JAGC, USNR, Ret.
Paul F. Fulcomer, RD3
Ray Fuller, GMG3
Steve Fulton, Cdr., USN, Ret.
Mike Gann, Capt., USNR, Ret.
Steve Gardner
Bill Garlow
Les Garrett
Tony Gisclair
Robert Gnau, QM2
Donald Goldberg
Morton Golde, Cdr. USN, Ret.
Kenneth Golden
Gerald L. Good, Lt. USN
John C. Graves
Charles E. Green, ENCM, USN Ret.
Dennis L. Green, GMG
H.C. Griffin, Jr., Lt. USNR
I.B.S. (Boyd) Groves, Jr.
Charles R. Grutzius, Capt. USNR, Ret.
F.L. Skip “Mustang Sally”
Gunther, Lt. USN
Bill Halpin, Lt. USNR, Ret.
Don C. Hammer, Lt.
Rock Harmon
Keith C. Harris, RD2
Stewart M. Harris, Lt., USN
Gene Hart, RD3
Bob Hastings
Curt Hatler
John Hecker , RD3
Chuck Herman, RD3
Raul Herrera
Tom Herritage
Grant (Skip) Hibbard
Rocky Hildreth
Roy Hoffmann, Adm., USN, Ret.
William P. Holden, Capt., USN Ret.
Wayland Holloway, Lt. USNR
Robert Hooke, Lt.
Andy Horne
John Howell
Warren Hudson
Charles W. Hunt, EN3
Robert Hunt
Gail E. “Ike” Ikerd, Cdr. Ret.
John Paul Jones, QM3
Tom Jones
Eddie Kajioka ENCS, USN Ret.
John L. Kipp, Cdr., USN, Ret.
Thomas H. Klemash
Kenneth Knipple, EN1
Robert Koger, QM2
Mike Kovanen, RD3
Bob Kreyer, GMG2
Jack K. Lane, GMG3
William T. Langham
William Lannom
Joseph R. Lavoie, II CWO2 (BOSN), USN Ret.
Louis Letson, LCdr., USN, Ret.
Jim Madden, RD3
William S. Mann, Jr., LT.jg
Jim Marohn, GMG3
Douglas Martin, Lt. USNR
Tom Mason, Lt.
Donald Matras, EN2 Ret.
Thomas Mason, Lt.
Louis Masterson
Richard McFarland, Lt. USNR
Kenneth B. McGhee
James McNeal, ENC
Larry Meyer
Jack Merkley, Lt.
James M. Miller
Martin Miller, ENC, Ret.
Marc Milligan, GMG2
Benjamin A. Montoya, QM3
Bub Morgan, LT.jg
Edgar (Ed) M. Morrill, Jr.
Tom Morrill, EN3
Wayne H. Moser
Kurt Moss, Lt. J.G.
Frank Mueller
Marc Mulligan, GMG2
Ed Mundy
Richard Olsen, Lt.
John O’Neill
Albert Owens
Tedd Peck, Capt. USNR, Ret.
Robert Phalen, GMG2
Joseph L. Ponder, GMG-2, USN Ret.
Charles Plumley
Chuck Rabel
Bill Rogers , Lt.
Jennings Rogerson II, Capt. USMC Ret.
Patrick Sage GMG3
Gary W. Sallee, BM2
Joe Sandoval, GMG3
Jimmy W. Sanford, RD3
Robert “Bob” Sattergood
Jim Schneider, EN2
Clair J. (Pete) Schrodt, Capt. USN, Ret.
Jack Shamley
Patrick Sheedy, Cdr., USN, Ret.
Paul Shepherd, QM2
Robert B. Shirley, Lt.jg
William Shumadine
Stanley G. Simonson, GMG2
Darryl Skuce, GMG2
John J. Skura
Gerald H. Smith
Roy Smith
B. Tony Snesko BM2
Mike Solhaug
Jack Spratt, LCDR
H.R. Stirlin, BM2
Fred E. Stith, USN, (Ret.)
David R. Stefferud, Capt., USN Ret.
James Steffes
Lawrence Stoneberg, Lt. USN Ret.
Weymouth Symmes
W.P. (Sonny) Taylor
James P. Thomas
Eldon Thompson, LT.jg
Charles R. Tinstman, ENC
Gary E. Townsend
William F. Trainer
Michael Turley, BM2
Chris J. Vedborg, RD3
Jeffrey M. Wainscott, LT. jg
David Wallace
Greg Ward, EN2
Larry J. “Waz” Wasikowski,
Cdr. U.S. Naval Reserve
Pete Webster
Robert T. Wedge, Jr., QM1, USN Ret.
Steven Weekley, GMG, QM3
George H. White, II
R. Shelton White, Lt.
Gary K. Whittington, EN3
James D. Wiggins
Dennis D. Willess, EN3
Thomas A. Withey, Lt.
Barnard Wolff
Thomas W. Wright , Cdr., USN Ret.
John Wyatt, GMG
John Yeoman, Lt.
Ex Officio:
Verne DeWitt
David P. Marion , CPT Infantry, US Army
Benjamin A. Montoya, QM3
Cordelia Ogrinz, in memory of her brother Alexander J. Ogrinz, III, Lt.
Rex Rectanus, VADM, USN, Ret.
Skip Ridley
Emmett Tidd
James M. Zumwalt in memory of Elmo Zumwalt, Sr. and Elmo Zumwalt, Jr, his father and brother
correction
Yes, thank you, Mr. Moto, I was already quite aware of thier website. I can say with approval that they post messages that contradicty thier position, which is a positive sign, to be sure. I can further say that I find several of those posts rather persuasive. Have you read some of those?
I was already quite aware of the text of the letter, as well. The minor point that I am harping on is that they also promised a release of the names of signatories, after a claim of vast majority of support. To my knowledge, this has not happened as of yet. Do you know otherwise?
Others have already commented on the drollery of insisting on the release of all military records, no need for futher comment on my part.
But if it should turn out that of all the people who had contact with John Kerry during his service, half like him and half didn’t, half approved of his post war conduct and half didn’t, keep in mind that one comment is prominent by its absence:
“Lt. Kerry has not been observed in Viet Nam.”
Ah! The signatory list. Well, we’ll see what happens when enquiring minds are applied. But one thing confuses me, and I make no contention here: the letter states that all the undersigned are similar veterans…swift boats, Viet Nam, etc.
And the list. Many abbreviations for ranks, I’m presuming. Some indication of current status, some are marked “ret.”. But wouldn’t one assume such would be the case with most of the signatories, it having been more than 30 years?
Not making any claims here, but it does strike me as odd.
Here is the Swift Boat Vets’ statement of goals. They are a special political action committee with the objective of restoring the honor of the swift boat guys and rebutting Senator Kerry’s unanswered lies and bringing the truth of his military service before the public. It’s pretty slim on specifics and pretty broad on rhetorical conclusions. What unanswered lies? What truth? How many of these people had any meaningful contact with Senator Kerry? Why do these people deserve any more attention than anybody else? Why is their opinion of any value? Your not going to find out on this web site.
I’m sure glad these people are bringing us chapter and verse instead of a collection of unsubstantiated conclusions.
A hatchet job is still a hatchet job, no matter how many old sailors sign on.
Nothing odd about, it, elucidator. You can only claim retired status if you’re collecting a pension, and you can only do that if you stay in the military at least 20 years.
John Kerry and I are both veterans, but neither of us are retired (I was enlisted for five years).
The retirees are your career military men and women, after their service is concluded.
Ah, so desu ka, Mr. Moto, wakarimasu.
First of all, great comeback, Mr. Moto. You really know how to put me in my place. I don’t think I’ve ever met such a devastating wit or such a fine analytical mind whose ruthless critical thinking skills have helped him to be so fastidiously impartial to John Kerry. Truly, you are a shining light among men. I’m absolutely certain that you earned every single one of those medals you like to boast about even though, by your own account, the poeple who make the evaluations are just a bunch of liars who can’t be trusted.
I think we need to review a little history here.
Anybody here remember the Clinton administration? Boy I do. Here’s what I remember:
The Clintons were guilty of some horrible nameless crime over some place called Whitewater the evidence for which was never produced. They were hounded for eight years with Republicans insisting every week that they were finally going to come up with the goods and show what evil, sleazy, legally-culpable bastards the Clintons really were. In the end they were exxonerated three times, including by Ken Starr yet somehow it was the Clintons’ whose names smeared and not their clearly lying accusers.
During that time we were also told that they murdered Vincent Foster and about two dozen other people for “knowing too much” about Whitewater which was shit. They were accused of drug running which was shit. They were accused of selling out secrets to China which was shit. And anybody who still doesn’t get the fact that Paula Jones was never anything but a little trailer park tart looking for attention and a big pay day is one severely deluded individual. OK, they got him for lying about BJs in the OO, but we knew that he was a cockhound before we elected him. Big whoop. (And by the way, Mr. Moto, I certainly hope you point out that MY GOD, BUT CLINTON LIED UNDER OATH!!! Because then we can do a contrast and compare between lying under oath — which was such a big deal at the time to you Republicans — and lying to get us into a flaming cancerous disaster of a war which you have shown every sign of being perfectly OK with in your tireless quest to be fair to John Kerry.)
Then Al Gore ran for president. Throughout the campaign there were all these stories about him being a weird, lying exxagerator. You know, because he said that he invented the internet, which he didn’t (say), because he said the main character in “Love Story” which, amazingly enough, he was. Because he said he discovered Love Canal, which didn’t (say). All these charges were hurled at him that turned out, upon examination, to be utter horseshit. Sort of like what we were told going into Iraq, eh?
Do you sense a pattern? I do.
Republicans have learned that they can win through character assassination. In fact, things being how they are, they have to. Well, I don’t know about anybody else around here, but I’ve had my fill of this crap. It’s time somebody introduced to Republicans the concept of shame. Like, you should be ashamed for consantly lying about Democrats and for lying to us and for wasting everybody’s time with one phony BS scandal after another, especailly at a time like this when we are in one giant vat of shit which we are in, by the way, because you lied to us! In the last twelve years I have gone from being a libralish independant who had to agree that Republicans had some goods points to regarding you guys as shameless, hateful and unpatriotic liars and/or severely deluded twits because people like you have made that conclusion utterly inescapable.
So, now you’ve got a list of names of people who say that John Kerry was a turd. Big whoop. A prediction: the overwhelming majority of his critics are going to be shown not to be in a position to know what they’re talking about or are going to be politically compromised while the men who actually served under him will continue to give him their near-unanimous support. I also predict that none of this is going to impress you and that you will keep resorting to pointing to the long list of names from the anti-Kerrys to prove your case.
In any case, since you so obviously care so very much both for the truth and being so immaculately fair to John Kerry, won’t you join me in demanding that President Bush release ALL of his military records so we can see ALL of his evaluations and get to the bottom of what really happened?
I mean, you are trying to be fair, aren’t you?
Excellent post, braintree, and similar to the process I have gone through, too. As I have said, it has really gotten to the point that with every single assertion put forth by conservatives, I know it is at least misleading or a misstatment, if not downright false.
I think, however, that you are barking up the wrong tree looking for shame from them. They’ve proven that that concept fell by the wayside long ago, along with personal accountability and any sense of ethical conduct. But if you can do it, I wish you well. As Sharon likes to say, we need a partner in reconcilliation, but we don’t have one right now.
I’m sorry. I’ve read the letter twice now.
Can someone point me to the section in which it is asserted that Kerry is “not fit to be Commander in Chief”?
I can’t find it.
Oh, sure. I don’t seriously expect Mr. Moto or his ilk to feel shame. That would indicate a capacity for self criticism which he, for example, clearly lacks. Like a lot of people who have either committed or supported atrocities these guys work on the principle that because they FEEL themselves to be good and moral the MUST BE good and moral — and anyone who points out logical inconsistencies in their arguments or shows that they haven’t got their facts straight are guilty of just so much mind fucking thus proving once again that they were right all along about being the good and moral ones.
However, pointing out that they should be ashamed combined with their obvious lack of it, will, I am quite certain, prove to be a powerful political weapon to use against these guys. Don’t forget, that’s what ultimately beat Joe McCarthy.
It’s not the right nor the left but the middle that counts.
A thought just occurred to me. It seems that the Swift boat vet’s web site clearly has a bug up its joyhole about being accused of atrocities by John Kerry. So that’s it.
The problem is swift boat crews DID commit atrocities — unless mowing down defenseless fishermen in fee-fire zones is your idea of random acts of kindness (you know, because we were trying to “save” them). Few things are more likely to make a person go into a self-righteous fury than a charge that’s actually true. And these boys are going to insist on sticking it to Kerry.
And, if they do, Kerry’s is likely to be squeezed into a position where, in order to defend himself, he’s going to have to remind everyone that the atrocities were real.
We can then look forward to major network news specials revisiting some of the inglories of Vietnam thus reopening a lot of old wounds and reminding everbody why a lot of people used to think it was really cool to go up to American soldiers and call them baby killers.
Are you guys sure you really want to go there?
And you won’t. And Bush supporters will continue to point to the number of signatories and claim that you don’t need any more evidence than that.
Then they’ll shout, “Oh my God! Is that what I think it is?” while pointing over your shoulder, only to be gone when you turn back.
And I like this:
“. . .Indeed, you should note that a substantial number of those men who served directly with you during your four month tour in Vietnam have signed this letter.”
Not most, not many , but “a substantial number”. How delightfully ambiguous. How Machiavellian. How full of shit. I will also go out on a limb here and claim that most (note that) of the signatories will be shown to be at least as up to their asses as O’Neill.
Oh, and this:
“It is our collective judgment that, upon your return from Vietnam, you grossly and knowingly distorted the conduct of the American soldiers, marines, sailors and airmen of that war (including a betrayal of many of us, without regard for the danger your actions caused us.”
I’m sorry, who was it that said that they didn’t think that Kerry’s anti-war stance was what was getting these fellas all bent outta shape?
And if they really believe so strongly in their cause, why:
“Further, we believe that you have withheld and/or distorted material facts as to your own conduct in this war.”
Than to come right out and say what those distorted facts are? Or am I to believe that those who sang Kerry’s fulsome praise 30+ years ago have changed their minds, and that I should give all weight to this latest steaming pile of dung, keeping in mind that anything written back in the mists of time were usually full of lies?
“You now seek to clad yourself in the very medals that you disdainfully threw away in the early years of your political career.”
Again with the anti-war activities. How dare you, John Kerry, come to your own conclusion if it disagrees with the line coming forth from the administration of Nixon! Damn you!
And while this has been spoken to, I just can’t resist poking it a couple more times:
“In the process, we believe you continue a deception as to your own conduct through such tactics as the disclosure of only carefully screened portions of your military records. Both then and now, we have concluded that you have deceived the public, and in the process have betrayed honorable men, to further your personal political goals.”
Heh. . .d’you suppose that these guys are really a comedy troupe? If not, they’re missing their callings.
If anyone wants to bitch about Kerry, there are several things that can be legitimately hashed out. This, though, is yet another bullshit smear.
Waste
Actually, after much careful reflection, I do agree with Mr. Moto regarding Kerry’s medal-throwing escapade. If I understand correctly, Kerry attached his ribbons to someone else’s medals and threw them, instead. To do so strikes me as intentionally misleading. So, regarding this:
…it seems to me that Kerry has displayed a double standard. Or at the very least he did, 30 years ago.
But so what? Compared to Bush, Kerry’s a choir boy.
Hell, I’d vote for a frikken chimpanzee over the current occupant of the Oval Office.