John Kerry's Plan for Job Growth

If you currently reside in a swing state as I do you have probably seen John Kerry’s ad touting his plan to create 10 million new jobs. It doesn’t list a specific time frame for these 10 million new jobs but does give a url for his website. Conviently posted on his website is a fact sheet for his newly released economic plan.

His four main tenents are as follows: 1) Cut Middle Class Taxes (income<$200,000) 2) Restore PAYGO: Roll Back Bush Tax Cuts for Wealthy to Pay for Health and Education 3) Restrain Discretionary Spending and 4) Cut Corporate Welfare to Reduce the Deficit.

In regards to his first tenet Kerry claims that the typical worker has seen their real wages fall $1,200. As far as I could find he provides no numbers or statistics to back these up. His first two bullets under this category are in regards to health care and not raising taxes so I will ignore them for the purpose of this debate. In the third bullet he states that he will close coporate loopholes in regards to taxes to pay for ** any additional tax cuts to stimulate job creation or relieve the middle-class squeeze **. Even as an arm chair economist I can tell that “raising” taxes on corporations will not result in job growth but in fact just the opposite. Corporations will have less money to spend on new workers or on growth if their taxes are higher. He says that this will pay for tax cuts to stimulate job creation. I ask which businesses or who will recieve these tax cuts to stimulate jobs if corporations will see their taxes “raised”? (I put raised in quotes becuase Kerry is not advocating additional corporate taxes but closing loopholes in the current laws.)

As far as his second tenent to roll back Bush’s tax cuts he does not make any claims that this will cause job growth so I will disregard it for the purposes of this debate.

In his third bullet Kerry tells us where he will get the new revenue for additional spending he proposes. He will collect royalties for mineral rights on federal land. Again I don’t understand how increasing taxes on businesses will yield additional jobs. He plans to cut electricity use by 20 percent in the next 10 years. He provides no numbers or specifics to say how he will do this. He wants to cut subsidies to high income farms. Again I don’t see how taking money away from businesses will cause job growth. He also plans to save money by eliminating 100,000 contracting jobs to the government. I find it pretty absurd that he is saying his plan will create 10 million new jobs while the plan involves directly eliminating jobs.

The fourth bullet talks about how he plans on reducing corporate welfare. He claims that can save 10s of billions of dollars a year by doing so. I know am starting to sound like a broken record but how does taking money away from businesses promote job growth. It can’t be that the government will use this money to hire more workers becuase Kerry previously said that he was reducing the number of contractors.

In addition to that press release he has a seperate section on the jobs and the economy on his website. This page has his plans for keeping jobs in America instead of outsourcing them overseas.

Give Workers Notice:

He wants to require companies to inform laid of workers of resources availible to them. This sounds like an excellent plan but I doubt that it will ever be enacted or enforced. He also wants to require companies to give 3 months notice before laying off workers. This is just a plain bad idea, if a company makes a decision that laying off workers is in the best interest for the health of the company they should not have to wait 3 months to do so.

Keep Jobs in America:

Kerry wants government contracts to go to American workers. Yet he claims that he is going to eliminate 100,000 contractors. Cutting jobs doesn’t sound like keeping them in America to me.

He wants the government to stop giving contracts to companies that break the rules such as World Com. This is an excellent idea but he also doesn’t provide any evidence that we are currently giving contracts to these companies.

He wants to require a tag similiar to the “made in whereever” tags we see on manufactured goods to call centers. Meaning that he wants to require companies to inform callers that their call is not going to a call center in the United States. This is an excellent idea becuase it allows consumers to choose to keep their business in America. I doubt however that this will change many consumers behaviors becuase Americans like all humans want the lowest price on their goods. The public frets and moans about lost American jobs but frequents stores like Wal-Mart in which nearly everything is imported. If Americans really cared that much about keeping jobs in America they would only buy American made products.

Part of a Real Plan to Create Real Jobs:

Kerry wants to provide tax breaks to companies that produce manufactured goods in the United States. It seems like a good idea but Kerry doesn’t provide specifics as to how much of a tax break or what would qualify.

He also has a plan to give small businesses a tax credit for health care and plans to make it easier for them to aquire capital and loans. This along with the previous paragraph in theory will help create new jobs but without specifics to his plans and the amount of tax credits we have no way of determing how effective they will be.

He wants to invest in renewable energy and technologies that will create 500,000 new jobs and make energy more affordable. Color me confused but as far as I know renewable energy is generally more expensive that burning non-renewable fuel. I don’t see how creating 500,000 new jobs (again no specifics as to how this will happen) in an unprofitable industry is a good idea. These jobs and industries will have to be heavily subsidized by the government and the government propping up unprofitable industries is never a good idea.

Kerry says he will “crack on countries that violate trade agreements and will take action when American industries are hurt.” (I think he means crack down but I don’t know he might just call them stupid or something.) This is definately an area which he will do much better than Bush on. In a perfect world we should not trade with countries such as China until they raise wages to levels comparible to U.S. workers. But can we afford to sacrifice a market with 1 billion people plus all the additional countries that don’t pay their workers a high enough wage? I think the solution is that workers in the U.S. need to have a higher skill set than workers in other countries.

Kerry sees this solution also and proposes tax credits for college with a plan to make college as universal as high school. The problem with this that not everybody can make it through college. There is a reason that only half of Americans go to school and only half of those come out with a degree. College is hard and it requires a lot of hard work, study and a certain level of innate ability. There is no way that we will see job growth from this in the next 4 years and I am doubtful that we will ever see college graduates as common as high school graduates.

I think Kerry has some decent ideas for the economy but I am highly skeptical that they will help create jobs. Making corporations and rich people pay more taxes will help the middle and lower classes but saying that it will cause job growth is ludicrus.

I would just like to note that nowhere in the O.P. did I mention President Bush nor his economic plan. I would ask that posters do the same and stick to debating Kerry’s economic plan. If you want to debate Bush’s plan by all means start a thread and do so but please keep it out of this one.

I dunno, I believe Bill Clinton created 22 million jobs over eight years with the same idea. Someone more economically astute than me could give the details, though.

Of course, the Republicans were screaming then that his plan would send the country into financial ruin, too…

I’m all for job growth, but do have a question regarding Kerry’s plan. According to the latest BLS report there are 8.4 million unemployed people in the US labor force. Where is he going to get the extra 1.6 million people to fill the jobs once we get to 0% unemployment? Now maybe I’m not looking at the figures “correctly”, but if my math is correct it makes it seem like the Kerry camp just pulled a “sounds good” number (10 million) out of thin air instead of it being based on anything.
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm

You have to be VERY careful giving credit to Clinton for the job creations and economic climb during his administration. You have to account for the fact that dozens of entirely new industries were created with the exponential expansion of the Internet, and most of these were targetted at middle/service class people. This is something of a one time fluke, not a result of economic plans, and part of the recession we have been seeing is a result of that fluke leveling itself out to a more realistic level.

I wouldn’t attribute all of the job gain and loss to Clinton or Bush, and especially their tax policies. If Clinton had done the exact opposite policies, the same job creation would have happened, and if Gore had won the election, the same job loss would have happened. That’s how things go. The economy won’t be swung around on something as simple a tax policy - though it may help nudge it.

Everyone always cries that on both sides. Of course, Clinton didn’t blow a large surplus on a publicity ploy, but that is another debate.

Bush’s economic plan is instructive on this… :stuck_out_tongue:
I’m not so sure you’re looking at the whole picture. From (even a soft) Keynesian perspective, balanced budgets are inherently growth promoting. I would also suspect that they are good for things like consumer and investor confidence. You also seem to give short shrift to the largesse he suggests for businesses, especially investing in non-oil technology.

You say that cutting farm subsidies is bad and that taxes are bad. But you can’t have one without the other. Taxing people isn’t good for business, either. You also have to explain why getting equal tax revenues from the wealthy is worse than getting it from the middle class. The middle class spend proportionally more, so tax breaks to them will provide a market expansion that breaks to the wealthy will not. Additionally, business responds to demand: Expanded market opportunities means expanded business opportunities. Fiction notwithstanding, I’ve seen no evidence that Atlas shrugs. Indeed, you can read Does Atlas Shrug? and give us the details. And don’t forget that farm subsidies are a huge inefficiency supporting an industry that is largely unprofitable. Agriculture could use a little trimming, with subsidies to the poor being a far more just and efficient way to help them afford food.

Unfortunately, he is a protectionist—the intellectual equivalent of the young Earth creationist. It’s hard to argue that that will hurt the economy, since Bush is a de facto protectionist and so I don’t foresee a great policy shift there. Of course, that won’t create jobs, as you indicate.

Other points: More information is better for the economy. Not giving fair warning of layoffs is not prima facie bad. Nor is requiring firms to educate employees who get the axe. Firms enjoy lower risk in the labor market than individuals, it is more efficient for them to bear some extra costs to compensate for that.

Regarding renewables, if renewables aren’t enjoying economies of scale extant energy sources do, or if market entry is prohibitively expensive, inter alia, then investment is not necessarily bad. Ironically, your argument against renewables contradicts your argument for farm subsidies. What you should have asked is why investing in renewables would add jobs, since renewables are intended to replace non-renewables! Evidently, renewable energy is labor intensive. Insert your own Human-Powered hamsterwheel joke here.

Finally, since he claims to be creating jobs, he is making a change from the status quo. Hence, the status quo is a perfectly legitimate topic in your proposed debate. From the perspective of a Bush detracter, wouldn’t your insistence on excluding Bush from the debate be like discussing the early success of homeopathy without mentioning the barbaric medical practices extant at the time? In any policy debate the status quo is not only fair game, it is necessary game if you wish to treat the question fully!

I’m sure I’ve missed many of your points. I guess Kerry’s plan is a mixed bag in my eyes. Some of it is very bad (protectionism), some seems close to a push (renewables), some seem good (pushing tax burden off the less wealthy on to the more wealthy). You’ve laid gloves on Kerry; but, I don’t see a victory.

Unemployement only includes those looking for jobs. There may a number of people who’ve dropped out of the market who would join it if there were better/more opportunities out there. Plus, there is no mention (in the OP) of whether it is a net gain…

I know I created 23 jobs in the 90s during Clinton’s term. These were actual people hired by me. I can’t speak for the other 21,999,977 jobs, but pardon me if I’m skeptical that Clinton **created ** any of them.

When politicians talk about creating jobs, run for the hills. What they usually mean is that they will meddle further in the economy. And most economics will tell you that, more often than not, meddling in the economy will reduce job creation. The private sector creates jobs. The government is along for the ride.

At least Kerry is talking about creating jobs, and has a plan, no matter how good it is. This remincs me of Hoover and FDR. Hoover ignored the unemployed, and FDR tried to everything he could. It really doesnt matter how many of FDR’s programs worked, because at least he was trying and HOover was not, just like bush. Bush even managed to get rid of extended benefits for those layed off. Bush comes accross like someone who really doesnt understand the unemplyed nor care. If Kerry can end incentives for companies who move overseas, and give tax breaks for companies who create american jobs, it will be 1000 times more than what bush is doing. Even if you have a job, you should be concerned, because if someone else is unemployed, it will be you who will have to make up for the lost income taxes. We all benefit if more american jobs are created.

Focus people we are debating whether or not Kerry’s plan will create the 10 million jobs he claimed or any at all.

js_africanus-

I agree that a budget balanced over the long term is ideal for growth. Running a deficit in the short term is not nessecarily bad and can help the economy recover. For example we should have saved the excess revenue during Clinton’s era so we could responsibly run a defecit now. Kerry says he is going to return to a balanced budget but he proposes an awful lot of new programs with tax-cuts for the middle class. I have my doubts that he will or even can fufil his promise.

In regards to subsidies I would prefer that nearly all subsidies would be eliminated and that revenue be returned to the tax payers in the form of tax cuts. Kerry claims that he will create jobs by providing tax breaks to businesses. He proposes paying these by increasing taxes on businesses. These are mutually exclusive and it seems to me that Kerry’s plan is not feasible.

To reiterate my main point I agree with some of his points but I don’t see how his plan will grow the economy or create jobs. I didn’t intend to nor do I want this thread to turn into proving that Kerry’s plan is bad. I wanted to frame my OP to express my misgivings and questions about Kerry’s plan in hopes it would spark a debate. Hopefully we can come to some sort of consensus to the probable result of Kerry’s plan.

What I do not want is for this thread to become a partisan pissing contest.
::glares at Susanann, John Mace and rjung::

First of all, it has been 3 years and 80 days since Bush took office. When will the administration and his pundits stop blaming Clinton for the problems Bush is currently facing?

Second, the administration is on record as favoring outsourcing jobs. I would have to guess that the only reason Bush is leading the polls is that all Americans are wannabe entrepreneurs. If that is so, then labor is in deep trouble.

I generally don’t like to get into these political debates, but a few posters may may have missed the stats recently released by the Bureau of Labor Statistics that there were over 300,000 new jobs last month, and that unemployment is the lowest it’s been in about 3 years.

We all want more money, and those who are un- or under-employed are hurting, but 5% unemployment is darn close to the floor below which capitalist countries cannot be expected to go.

My opinion is that when it comes to jobs and the economy, any objective person *should * conclude that the current administration is doing pretty well. Of course, there do exist some who will declare otherwise regardless of the facts, because they have a political agenda, but then that’s to be expected. It’s in the nature of politics.

Re the OP: Nope, Kerry’s “plan” would accomplish little or nothing, and might make things worth. There is just so much that can be squeezed from the so-called “rich.” If someone honestly makes, say $200,000 a year, and you’re going to take 50, 60 or 70% of his income, where’s his incentive? Where’s the ceiling? I find the Kerry proposals to be short on substance, long on hyperbole, contradictory and ultimately unworkable. But then that’s just me and my humble opinion.

Make that “might make things worse” in my final paragraph. I **did ** preview. Really, I did.

In the meantime, Canada’s unemployment rose from 7.4% to 7.6% this month, and jobs report indicates that we lost over 20,000 jobs, in an economy 1/10 the size of yours. That’s like losing 200,000 jobs in one month in the U.S.

And yet, no one seems particularly worried about it, and if you asked Canadians to list the 10 biggest problems Canada faces, high unemployment probably wouldn’t even make the list.

From that perspective, I find the handwringing in the U.S. over jobs to be absolutely perplexing. We’d kill to have your ‘problem’.

As for the specifics of Kerry’s plan - First of all, he’s flip-flopped again in case you didn’t notice. He came out today and said his first priority will be balancing the budget, even if it means that he can’t do all he’s promised. And since what he’s promised is over a trillion dollars in new spending, I’d say that his statement today completely negates his economic plan, such that it is. Let’s see… He’s going to cut taxes for the middle class, he’s going to increase subsidies to the ‘good’ industries, provide health care for everyone, greatly increase spending on education, increase funds for domestic anti-terror programs, and oh yeah, balance the budget, too.

This indicates one of two things - a massive tax increase on corporations and the wealthy, or severe spending cuts in other areas. Both of these are really bad for job creation.

Sam Stone, immediately, before you say another word, support this assertion. What other flip flops do you refer to? Either that, or retract and stop this lame conservative shill routine.

Cite. Now.

Cite. Now.

So what do you have to support this, except a poorly staged effort at irony?

As has been observed many times before - the last time these strategies were implemented, it was damn good for job creation. The proof is in the pudding.

Please, either make a cogent and supported argument, or save us all the trouble by just saying “ditto,” and linking to George W. Bush.com.

I hope that one day, people like you will understand that the bubble of the Nineties was just that: A bubble. A glitch in the system. A false upswing to economy. Not real. Based on speculation. Ethereal in nature.

If we added ‘22 million’ jobs in the same way that we did in the Nineties, we will have yet another crash, guaranteed. Because when you build a house of cards, you can’t be too suprised when it all comes crashing down.

Well, if we added 22 million jobs, we would need to invent another brand new industry O_o

People need to be realistic and stop doing the game of using statistics blindly. Numbers and trends do not exist in a vacuum. They have causes and effects that are much more complicated. Both sides do it, and it is irritating. Correlation does not equal causation, damnit! I think every person in the United States needs to take Statistics 101 - maybe the politicians should take it two or three times. The sad part is, people buy into their stats manipulations every freaking time, and the media only helps it. If CNN would say, “22 million jobs were created, largely attributed to the creation of the PC industry, under Clinton’s presidency,” it would be OK. Saying that Clinton caused those 22 million jobs to be created is bullshit, and if you believe it, you are more the fool.

Granted, I don’t think that Clinton’s economic policies did a lot of damage to the economy (personally, I haven’t read through the decade’s worth of statistics regarding every industry) and I accept the fact that no one has any cites about it, but giving him credit for it is as absolutely absurd as the Republicans claiming that Clinton had 100% of his time and attention on the Lewinsky scandal.

On the related note, don’t target Bush 100% for the lost jobs - if you want to target him, there are bazillions of valid points you could be making.

Umm, perhaps you should give some consideration to reading some of the other threads on SDMB that have discussed this subject in depth and completely debunked the statistics you are quoting before you jump into the fire. Your post proves that you read only the media headlines and do not understand how the numbers you are quoting are generated nor what they really mean. Here is a thread on this subject for your edification: Can we necessarily believe Bush’s new jobs claim?

Re: the OP - my concern with Kerry’s 10 million job projection is that like all politicians gone before, he doesn’t specify what the QUALITY of these jobs will be. If like the the last 300k number, the majority of them are part-time jobs, then that is not going to help the problem.

While outsourcing is taking about 300-500k jobs away from the USA yearly, many more jobs are being lost through productivity enhancement. Now, you can’t blame companies for wanting to run more efficient operations. But companies (in general) are not just doing enough to help train or fund additional training for workers so that they can better deal with potential displacement. And the government is not doing enough to help create new industries that people can transition to. Kerry needs to address these critical issues or I fear all he will be creating are temporary/part-time jobs in relatively low paying service sector. This will not help the economy long-term nor the prospects of the people affected.

We’ve discussed the issues mentioned above in a plethora of other threads here, so let’s not rehash what has gone before…

A little reminder from your friendly OP this thread is about whether John Kerry’s economic plan will create the 10 million jobs he is promising.

MLS- I don’t think we can universally say that the current administration is doing pretty well with regards to the economy. I personally think they are doing pretty well but its open to debate. Reasonably I think the lowest ranking possible is that of an O.K. rating neither good nor bad.

Sam Stone- John Kerry said today in his speech "My plan for America will put jobs first.? link

Hentor The Barbarian- I went through every point of Kerry’s economic plan in regards to job creation and I am less than impressed. Saying that his strategies are proven with nothing to back it up does not cut it. Your’s and Sam’s posts are exactly the ones I want to avoid in this debate.

You didn’t say the magic word.

But while you’re learning manners, you might try reading a newspaper. Kerry’s comments about cutting his own promised programs are all over them today. Google is your friend. If you’re really having trouble, try searching for “Kerry Georgetown University.”

As for previous flip-flops, give me a break. “I did vote for the 87 billion, before I voted against it.”

But this is my favorite:

“Thank you for contacting me to express your opposition … to the early use of military force by the US against Iraq. I share your concerns. On January 11, I voted in favor of a resolution that would have insisted that economic sanctions be given more time to work and against a resolution giving the president the immediate authority to go to war.”

–letter from Senator John Kerry to Wallace Carter of Newton Centre, Massachusetts, dated January 22, 1991

“Thank you very much for contacting me to express your support for the actions of President Bush in response to the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait. From the outset of the invasion, I have strongly and unequivocally supported President Bush’s response to the crisis and the policy goals he has established with our military deployment in the Persian Gulf.”

–Senator Kerry to Wallace Carter, January 31, 1991"

Sam Stone-

You are wrong in a speech today Kerry said that Jobs were his priority. His speech at Georgetown yesterday focused on his plan to eliminate deficit spending. That doesn’t mean his priority changed at all just he happened to have a different topic for his speech today. Part of his plan for job growth is a return to fiscal responsibility.

As to the rest of your post I have this to say. Knock it the fuck off the first Iraq war has zero, zip, jack shit to do with whether Kerry’s economic plan will cause the growth of 10 million jobs that he claims. If you want to start a thread about how Kerry flip flops like a mexican jumping bean fine but keep it out of this thread.