Jokes, in response to moderation etc

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241

I think there’s a huge difference. In the fireman joke, the fireman is the protagonist. The humor is, “Ha ha, he’s tricked her, and she’s gonna have to have sex with him or die!” In the undercover cop joke, the joke-teller is the butt of the joke. He’s both a sexual predator and an idiot, and the punchline is how stupid he is (and how he’s clearly going to prison for his misdeeds).

There’s no way I’d tell that second joke. I’ve got a variety of really strong reasons not to make jokes like that. But it doesn’t read to me as a joke that trivializes rape. I’m curious if others see it that way.

242

Wow - we see that a heck of a lot differently. The second joke makes fun of pedophilia, and I would never suggest that women were more helpless than children.

243

I agree with lhod. And i don’t think the joke “makes fun of pedophilia”. It makes fun of pedophiles. (Or a pedophile) That’s very different.

The first joke normalizes rape. The second joke normalizes stings catching pedophiles.

I’ll also note that the rape joke includes a woman who is going to be raped. There aren’t any children in the pedophile joke. No child was hurt in the creation of this joke…

244

So my preferred version below would be inappropriate? How about the MJ joke above?

*I got home and found my GF packing to leave. I asked why, and she said, “I just found out you are a pedophile.” *
I said, “My, that’s a big word for a 14-year old!”

You guys are suggesting some mighty fine hairs to split. Applying the “family diner table” test, I imagine most grandmothers would disfavor any of the above.

245

The first joke starts with a non-disturbing set up (fireman conducting a rescue) and turns disturbing with the rape-by-extortion punchline - the people we trust to help us are in fact monsters who will hurt us.

The second joke has a disturbing set up (an adult male talking about a sexy and flirty 14 year old) and flips into a non-disturbing scenario with the punchline - there is no kid, and the idiot paedophile is being caught by the competent authorities.

The first gets it laugh (if it does) essentially from revealing the world to be more horrible than we expect; the second from the world being safer and more just than we expect.

246

Well, this

Is certainly a LOT nastier than

247

I know a pedophile joke that’s pretty awful. I can’t help it, it’s still funny to me. I am a father with kids, and the joke implies a child is going to be murdered (and you can probably assume rape as well, since it involves a pedophile and a kid). So, it really shouldn’t be funny to me, but for some reason it is. Sometimes I can’t really tell why some jokes amuse us instead of offending us. It should be offensive to me. I know there is a sharp sense of irony in it, but just the same, it’s the kind of joke I would never tell unless I know someone really well.

248

Are you contending that is some universal judgment, or just your personal opinion. Because to me, they are essentially identical (in terms of “taste”) as the protagonist is an unrepentant pedophile.

Or:
Q: What did Michael Jackson say when acquitted of pedophilia charges?
A: I feel like a kid again!

I readily acknowledge that all of the jokes are in poor taste and inappropriate for indiscriminate telling (which doesn’t necessarily make them unfunny IMO).

Seems like a lot of people apply some more finely calibrated systems than I do for assessing what is or isn’t funny.

249

Did they apprehend him? ISTM that if that were true, he would have had a visit from the police or SWAT team or something. He’d be in jail and he wouldn’t be talking about it so matter-of-factly.

There was a program on TV some years ago where they set up stings. If a cop pretends to be 14, but isn’t 14, did the would-be predator in fact commit a crime? IANAL but in some cases the DAs declined to prosecute. Yes, some of the people caved in and entered a guilty plea but others didn’t. That was at least in part because of how they were set up and I wonder if it varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.

IMO the thing about the police/pedophile joke is that it trivializes pedophilia. The perpetrator isn’t at all concerned that anybody will condemn him, like it’s a minor character foible, so he admits it freely. And it doesn’t sound like he’s going to change his behavior so in that sense, it’s portrayed as normal for that person, nothing to be ashamed of, business as usual.

A couple from years gone by…

One that really slapped me in the face while I watched it for the first time and soured my interest in the movie was in “E.T.” At some point the kids are arguing and one calls the other “Penis breath.” First of all, so much for that tone of childhood innocence. Second, it was totally unnecessary…how many other retorts could they have written for the character instead? So why add that to a movie associated with childhood, meant for generations to cherish? Some kids latch on to a movie like that and watch it 100 times.

And one: in “When Harry Met Sally,” H+S are talking about how tough it is getting back into the dating scene after divorces. Harry says that he took a date to an Ethiopian restaurant.

I don’t know why my source capitalized every word but…anyway, trivializing famine? list of Ethiopian famines

“It Started Out Fine, She’s A Very Nice Person, And We’re Sitting And We’re Talking At This Ethiopian Restaurant That She Wanted To Go To. And I Was Making Jokes, You Know Like, ‘Hey I Didn’t Know That They Had Food In Ethiopia? This Will Be A Quick Meal. I’ll Order Two Empty Plates And We Can Leave.’”

Based on the body count, it’s like a Holocaust joke.

For an extended tour of quotes from that movie:

250

I think both jokes are in poor taste. But i think there’s a huge obvious difference between the two, and I’m frankly puzzled you don’t agree. So yeah, i think it’s universal.

251

Your “never suggest” has nothing to do with either jokes. Would you suggest that a woman in a burning building faced with a rapist firefighter is more helpless than an undercover cop trying to apprehend a sexual predator?

The joke makes fun of pedophilia, not of children. The joke makes fun of stupid predators, not children. If it made fun of children, I’d feel differently. Jokes where the punchline is a clever trick to succeed at attacking children are gonna make me feel real different.

252

Is it helpful to try to split hairs about which pedophilia jokes are “safe” to tell? I think we’re ending up in a familiar place: don’t be a jerk, and no bright lines. Rules lawyering about changes social mores isn’t going to change that.

253

I agree. But puzzlegal seems to believe there is some universally agreed upon schema that can be applied to distinguish among them.

To state the obvious - even the fact that I alone do not appreciate such distinctions establishes that such a system is not “universal.” But I presume that would put me at risk of being called a pedantic lawyer! :wink:

254

And redundant as well! :stuck_out_tongue:

255

I’m going to go out on a limb and guess this joke has walking in the dark woods mentioned in it. Because I agree, the punch line is so out of left field it caught me unaware. It may not be a nice joke, but it is a very well constructed joke.

If that was the worst thing my hypothetical child said, I’d die happy. That seems to be the kind of non-sensical stuff kids come up with all the time. It’s the adult that thinks it’s a reference to oral sex.

It would be nice if it was that simple. As you can tell from this thread, there is a wide difference in what people think being a jerk is, even moderators. That’s the down side of no bright line rules. Do you think the board would suffer if we had a bright line rule of no pedophile jokes? I’m not seeing any loss there. This thread is just another version of the qunt thread all over again.

@silenus shoots and scores! :smiley:

256

Yes, you got it. Clearly, it’s not that obscure of a joke.

257

Guilty as charged! :smiley:

258

Except…despite not appreciating the difference, you DID recognize it, enough to point out on your own that some might think your second joke was worse than your first.

Anyway, we could construct an endless stream of “bright line” rules, or we can continue to do what we are doing, which is that we have slightly squishy rules, but tend to mod note and warn before taking any more serious actions. I’m happy to stick with the status quo.

259

Sounds like a position you’d expect from a member of a group with power. :smiley:

As I’ve said many times, I have no problem with the moderation of these boards. I just felt the singling out of “rape jokes” odd. But other than it looking ugly and IMO being unnecessary, it had no effect on my reading/contributing to that thread or others.

260

It makes a lot of sense when you consider the big problem this board has had with misogyny in the past, and the recent efforts to try to change board culture and be less tolerant of it. We’ve had a number of people leave over it.