Can you name just one of these muslims you want to assault? Just *one *name? And do you have a notarized statement from that supposed muslim (was he wearing a sign?) that he was in fact a muslim at the time and approved of the 9/11 attack? Is there DNA evidence that he is actually the person that signed the statement?
Because if you don’t it didn’t happen. You just hate all muslims. Why don’t you go pick one at random and punch them in the face?
As covered in other threads, this concept does not exist in mainstream Islam except in the highly limited definition of “lying to a tyrant who wishes to punish you for being Muslim”.
While we’re at it, I still want to know when Lower Manhattan became “conquered territory” by any definition of the word ever.
No better reason to support the man and the vast majority of peaceful, ordinary Muslims.
Seriously. How is this a bad thing?
I have noticed that there’s this idea sometimes that if someone who is believed to be prima fascie evil does objectively good things, the goodness of those deeds is considered to be proportional to the evil he’s hiding with them. For example, the evangelical conception of The Antichrist in media like the Left Behind novels essentially has us instructed to fight hard against anyone who shows both the desire and the ability to increase the amount of peace in the world, because of COURSE that means he’s personally setting us all up for a sneak attack.
Add in the concept of taqiyya, and it’s pretty easy for (stupid) people to assume that any moderate to liberal Muslim leader is actually A) a preternaturally good actor and B) a slavering jihad who got kicked out of al-Qaeda for being a little TOO crazy about killing non-believers.
Who cares about what committed radicals think? I’m more worried about the masses. In your case 2, if the radicals tell the masses that America hates Islam, and prevents a mosque from being built, how can this be refuted? In your case 1, even if the masses were dumb enough to believe the radicals, it would inspire more apathy than rage.
Fox and Palin and Gingrich couldn’t be doing more for the radicals if they were on their payroll. Which, in the case of Fox, maybe they are.
(So I agree with you, in case it isn’t clear.)
…you know what?
All of the arguments made in this thread, all of the discussion about how “it’s not really a mosque” and “no one will celebrate it as a victory” and whatever else, all of it is kind of unnecessary, isn’t it? The above is the point. It’s the winning argument.
These are my people. I’m a white Italian raised Catholic and since… er… lapsed. But the folks who are building this thing - call it whatever you want, because it frankly doesn’t matter even a tiny little bit whether it’s a mosque or a community center or a nail salon - they are as much “my own people” as anyone you can name.
Anduril, what is your answer to that?
Look, September 11 was an act of division. It was perpetrated by guys who believed that there was, one the one side, them, and on the other side, us. And now, Anduril, all these years later, you’ve bought into their mindset. You’ve swallowed their narrative: Muslims versus Americans, let’s duel to the death.
Fuck that. I don’t just “not mind” them building this thing; I’m thrilled. Can’t say anything to the assholes who were actually responsible for 9-11, of course, because they’re happily dead, names forgotten, but you can speak to those who feel as they did. And what you can say is, fuck you. We’re going to build a concrete representation of our unity, and we’re going to do it on the same spot where you tried to divide us. And if some Muslim kid walking home from the fucking pool that you think is insensitive walks past some Christian kid walking home from a church that you don’t, and if it happens every day for two years and eventually, the two start to regard each other as nothing alien, just part of the scenery, if that only happens once?
It’s still a better way to honor the dead then staring eternally at a few acres of land and calling it “sacred.”
This whole subject pisses me off. Gah.
There are at least two Bishops of Baghdad (Anglican and RCC) so there is by definition already two Cathedrals. I do agree that building any kind of monument to honor “the victory of Christian soldiers” would be insensitive, and offensive both to the locals and to the soldiers who weren’t all Christian nor had they gone there “to fight for Christ”.
Re Miller’s wonderful response, I have a picture of a graffito from San Francisco which says, paraprhased from memory, “my people, your people, when will you realize we’re all the same people?” I think it’s one of the most beautiful photographs I’ve ever taken.
Though it lacks the mea-culpa tone in the Jon Stewart clip, there’s another ‘quasi-comedian’ (on the much derided FNC) whose thoughts on the Ground Zero mosque are both meaningful and humorous (in an ironic sense): Greg Gutfeld’s plan to “Open the first gay bar that caters not only to the west, but also Islamic gay men…adjacent to the mosque Park51”.
I’d quite honestly like to hear Anduril respond to my post #61.
Also, I stand with Miller. These are Americans; they are my people.
I thought, and I could be wrong - I’m having a hard time finding a definative answer via Google - that el-Gamal and Mousa were Egyptian and that Rauf was Kuwaiti.
Does anyone know for sure?
According to his wikipedia entry, Rauf is a “Kuwati born Arab-American.” Given that he’s been living and working in NYC since at least the early eighties, it seems pretty clear that he must have become a citizen at some point. I don’t think they issue work visas that last for thirty years. This interview with el-Gamal and Mousa describes el-Gamal as a “Brooklyn-born New Yorker.” I didn’t see anything about where Nour Mousa was born, though.
Cool, thanks.
Since this is the only post you made since I asked you again about the relevance of your previous statements, I can only assume you agree with this quotation and you were just extremely clumsy in expressing your previous posts.
I think this can also be debated. Or is it just an opinion?
Don’t you think that they should? After all, shitheads are erroneously claiming that anyone with a turban is a suicide bomber.