I seem to remember this defense being tried by somebody or other in Israel about 50-odd years ago. Y’all didn’t seem to go for it, back then.
Remember the hero’s welcome that another “prisoner of war” (theLockerbie bomber") got when he was released and arrived back home in Libya? People living in the countries whose citizens el-Megrahi helped slaughter were not pleased.
How do Israelis feel when when Palestinians convicted of crimes against Israelis are released from Israeli jails and get uproarious welcomes back home?
Now imagine Pollard being released and flown back to Israel. It’s highly likely he’ll get a hero’s welcome too and Netanyahu may not be able to resist giving him a big sloppy hug and kiss. How do you think Americans will feel about that?
If you’re convinced that American good will towards Israel is so boundless that such a display won’t hurt at all, you could be in for a surprise. It might be a factor in convincing a significant number of people that aid for Israel is due for a cutback.
And I might be one of them.
The Nuremberg Defence is all the more :dubious: in this case that Pollard was NOT a subordinate of his Israeli handlers in any way, shape or form. Beyond what he himself chose.
You can *possibly *make a case for soldiers following horrible orders, especially when their “choice” in the matter is obey or get shot or when crushing peer pressure is otherwise involved, but for Pollard ? Come on.
Forget it. Rules are for everyone else, not Israel. It’s all special pleading from the jingoes, all the time.
You did just that for…oh about 15 years.
That’s a load of hooey. I’m surprised you’re posting it.
#1. It wasn’t a minor disagreement. The man committed espionage against his own country.
#2. He was not a citizen of Israel when he was busy spying for Israel on the US.
#3. The dude was granted Israeli citizen in a very unusual move by the Israeli government. Why that was done, of course, is open to debate. It seems to me that the top contenders for doing that are (1) to garner political currency in Israel and (2) to tweak the nose, so to speak, of the US government.
#4. For about the umpteenth time, Pollard wasn’t sent to the US. The dude is an American citizen. He was, and is, living in his own country, the country on which he spied, spied for a foreign government.
#5. Pollard wasn’t “just the grunt”. He was already an adult and not mentally deficient when he committed his crimes against his own country. He chose to break US law. He is now dealing with the consequences of his action.
I understand why Americans are pissed about what Pillars did, but I don’t understand why Americans are so pissed that Israelis aren’t pissed.
Americans come from a society where guys were hanged for stealing horses.
Israelis come from a society where Rabbis would come up with legal solutions to not execute people who were guilty of crimes that should not carry the death penalty.
Except Israel didn’t send him. He was a local volunteer – and if the Wiki article is to be believed he was also stealing secrets to help his wife in her career, and he purportedly tried to sell secrets to other countries as well. So it might be more accurate to say Israel was his main customer.
We don’t expect them to be “pissed” - just to STFU about Pollard.
No, they don’t have to be pissed. But it would really help their image if they weren’t so fucking *proud *of the asshole, and weren’t pressing so hard to get him released so they could welcome and praise him for his crimes, while still expecting Sugar Daddy to keep the remittances coming no matter what they do to him.
Rules, principles, law, moral codes, universality, golden rule? Screw all that shit, nothing matters but “Israel, fuck yeah!” Same thing applies to their moving “settlers” into an occupied foreign land.
Since he’s going to be released next year, what’s the point of pushing for release now?
Why are you certain he is going to be released next year? Just because he is eligible for parole then doesn’t mean he will receive it.
The tortuous logic and willful blindness demonstrated by Alessan in this thread is pretty amazing, especially coming from someone who generally seems to be pretty even-keeled and logical, both on general topics and on topics related to Israel and the Middle East.
I’m still curious about the question i asked all the way back on the first page: why is it that you deny his mercenary motives, given the payments he received up front and on a monthly basis for the information he provided?
So long ago? It’s barely 30 years. A tiny fraction of time, in the context of Jewish and world history.
Your question is rather strange, coming from someone whose people (correctly, in my opinion) spend much time talking about the crucial importance of historical memory and the need to hold others responsible for their past actions.
My understanding is that by law if he has a clean prison record at this point they have to release him. This was mentioned earlier.
If I’m wrong I’ll be happy to be corrected.
If they don’t want him released, something will happen that he does not have a clean prison record.
Charles Manson, for example, is eligible for parole, but will near be released from prison.
carnivorousplant:
Yeah, but that’s because he’s a raving lunatic, and he keeps proving that at every one of his parole hearings. Videos of some of them are on YouTube, if you want to judge for yourself.
A bad example, but an example that someone eligible for parole doesn’t have to get it.
Isn’t one condition for parole usually expressing remorse for one’s crime? Or at least acknowledging what you did?
OK. I think some explanations are in order.
At some point over the past fourteen years, I became, more or less by default, this board’s most prominent Israeli. It’s not something I’m all that happy about, but due to a misplaced sense of responsibility I feel I have an obligation to shed some light on how my fellow Israelis think. As a result, I often post opinions that are not necessarily my own, but rather those that I believe would be held by the hypothetical Israeli on the street (and knowing the contentious nature of my countrymen, you’d realize how absurd the concept of a “commonly-held Israeli opinion” actually is). I usually try to differentiate posts featuring my own opinions from posts explaining how my countrymen think. Obviously, I don’t always succeed.
In short, most of what I’ve posted in this thread has been an attempt to explain why Israelis think the way they do about Jonathan Pollard, and not what this specific Israeli thinks about him. Personally, I don’t feel very strongly about the subject. I understand why Pollard is in prison, and I feel embarrassed by the whole affair. The man was certainly no saint. That said, I still think the U.S. should release him - out of compassion, and because we Israelis would appreciate it. It’ll cost you nothing and it’ll make us happy, so why not do it?
That, then, is my opinion on the matter. If you want, I’ll continue with my attempt to shed light on Israeli perceptions of this matter. Just don’t assume anything else I post in this thread is actually what I personally believe.