Joni Mitchell: why is she so bitter?

[EinsteinsHund]

@Finagle

Meh. Both Sides Now has at least that many covers, according to its Wiki page.

I really wanted to stay out of this thread, because being a great Dylan and Mitchell fan, I didn’t want to play the Bob vs. Joni game.

But considering cover versions…

Mitchell has several songs that have been covered a lot (Both Sides Now, Woodstock, Circle Game, Big Yellow Taxi), but Dylan has a shitload of songs that have been covered *umpteen *times, for example:

Blowin’ In The Wind
Like A Rolling Stone
All Along the Watchtower
Knocking On Heaven’s Door
Mr. Tambourine Man
The Times They Are-A Changin’
Forever Young
I Shall Be Released
This Wheel’s On Fire

… and many more

There can be now doubt that Dylan has been covered much more than Mitchell.

[Ogre]

Both Joni Mitchell and Joan Baez are incredibly bitter toward Dylan. My guess is it’s because neither of them have 1/10 the talent he does.

[WordMan]

@Captain_Amazing

Well, whether you like Bob Dylan or not, I can understand lambasting his voice. The man is awfully mumbly and needs enunciation lessons.

You may be whooshing me here - but to be clear:

You: Voice = vocals

Me: Voice = artistic Voice

[Rrose_Selavy]

She also quite possibly has an “imaginary” disease…?

“Fibres in a variety of colors protrude out of my skin like mushrooms after a rainstorm: they cannot be forensically identified as animal, vegetable or mineral. Morgellons is a slow, unpredictable killer – a terrorist disease: it will blow up one of your organs, leaving you in bed for a year.”

Bob Dylan is 'a plagiarist', claims Joni Mitchell

Morgellons

[kayaker]

I’m picturing Joni approaching Bob with some lyrics she had written, only to have Bob scowl and snarl, “Who the fuck let her in here”?!?

[Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew]

@kayaker

I’m picturing Joni approaching Bob with some lyrics she had written, only to have Bob scowl and snarl, “Who the fuck let her in here”?!?

- YouTube

[kayaker]

@Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXmtB-dnkn8

hehehe. No wonder the loon is pissed. He does it better than she ever did.

Joni: If you are reading this, hehe!!

[JohnT]

Maybe it’s because she still doesn’t know clouds… at all.

[sqweels]

@Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew

[Any references to Dylan Thomas will be written off as arrant smartassery.]

Wasn’t he Danny Thomas’ son?

[Qadgop_the_Mercotan]

To me, when I hear Morgellon’s, I think Delusional parasitosis.

[cjepson]

@Qadgop_the_Mercotan

To me, when I hear Morgellon’s, I think Delusional parasitosis.

Nitpick (sorry, couldn’t resist): It’s “Morgellons”, not 'Morgellon’s".

[eleanorigby]

I’m not thrilled with either of them, but I have to say that I cannot listen to Bob Dylan sing. Yeah, sure he can write lyrics, but I would much rather hear a cover of his songs than him singing them, ever. I hope I never have to hear him sing again.

Joni Mitchell strikes me as a tad self-absorbed (but no more than Dylan. I’ve always been :dubious: of his “mystique”). So, IMO, what we have here is 2 people at the end of their performing careers being bitchy and childish.
This is news?

I looked up Morgellons. WTF? :eek:

[Kimstu]

@Ogre

Both Joni Mitchell and Joan Baez are incredibly bitter toward Dylan. My guess is it’s because neither of them have 1/10 the talent he does.

To be fair, a case could be made that Dylan behaved like kind of an asshole towards Baez at least, who went out of her way to further his career back when she was a much bigger name than he was. IIRC, Dylan himself finally admitted he’d acted like an asshole in their relationship and apologized to Baez, in a documentary about her not long ago.

And in any case, I’m not sure I buy the accusation about Baez’s “incredibly bitter” attitude towards Dylan. She’s said some negative things about him, sure, but some positive things too.

[Qadgop_the_Mercotan]

@cjepson

Nitpick (sorry, couldn’t resist): It’s “Morgellons”, not 'Morgellon’s".

It’d be a relief to find nits on these folks! :eek:

[MTCicero]

@Markxxx

Ask anyone about a 60s protest singer and you get Dylan.

Or Phil Ochs.

[EinsteinsHund]

@MTCicero

Or Phil Ochs.

Oh, come on …

Everybody between 30 and 70 has heard the name Bob Dylan or knows at least one of his songs (sadly, mostly* Blowin’*), but who but those really interested in the 60’s folk scene has ever heard of Ochs or one of his songs?

[Spoons]

@In_Winnipeg

In fact, if it wasn’t for CanCon Rules, I doubt if I would have ever really heard of her, because I seriously doubt that anyone would have given her any radio airplay in Canada otherwise. Of course, the fact that she was chalking up so much (illigitimate) airplay (which was only because she was Canadian, and for no other real reason) didn’t go unnoticed although those elsewhere didn’t realize that it was only because it was against the law here not to play her (and other Canadian artists, of which there were only so many at the time).

Just a point to correct here: it is perfectly legal to not play Joni Mitchell. It is also perfectly legal to not play Neil Young, Loverboy, and Rush. What is illegal (in the sense that the CRTC will enforce the matter, not the police) is not playing the required amount of Cancon–which stands at 35%, last time I checked. That could be made up of the above artists, but it need not be–no artist is mandated to be played.

As for whether Joni Mitchell was getting “illegitimate” airplay, we should consider that many of the Canadian artists that got a boost from the introduction of Cancon regulations in 1971 were one- or two-hit wonders. James Leroy and Denim? Ray Materick? A Foot in Cold Water? Crowbar? Patsy Gallant? The Parachute Club? Jane Siberry? Martha and the Muffins? I can name about one song by each of these. I do slightly better on folks like Nick Gilder, Keith Hampshire, and Ian Thomas, for whom I can name two or three. Like Joni Mitchell, all of these, and many others, spent time on Canadian charts.

But for sheer volume of well-known and common work that also qualifies as Cancon, it’s hard to beat Joni Mitchell–not forgetting, of course, the Guess Who, Burton Cummings (as a soloist), Gordon Lightfoot, Neil Young, Rush, Shania Twain, and (you knew this was coming) Celine Dion. They were more than one- or two-hit wonders; they actually kept producing fresh work, thus ensuring that they were often in the public ear. I’d suggest that Joni Mitchell didn’t get airplay because she was Canadian–many others, now mostly forgotten, were Canadian too. Rather, it was because she kept producing chartable work long after other Canadian artists with whom she once shared chart space had fallen off the charts.

[Ogre]

@Kimstu

To be fair, a case could be made that Dylan behaved like kind of an asshole towards Baez at least, who went out of her way to further his career back when she was a much bigger name than he was. IIRC, Dylan himself finally admitted he’d acted like an asshole in their relationship and apologized to Baez, in a documentary about her not long ago.

And in any case, I’m not sure I buy the accusation about Baez’s “incredibly bitter” attitude towards Dylan. She’s said some negative things about him, sure, but some positive things too.

I saw Joan Baez in concert last year. She still bitches about Dylan, on-stage, to this day. She’s bitter.

[Algher]

Dylan’s “first” would probably be going electric. That pissed off a lot of folk performers, and they felt he had sold out.

Interesting bit on that (and how true it might or might not be) is here:

Electric Dylan controversy

Arlo Guthrie tells a story of Dylan visiting Woodie at the Guthrie house - so it isn’t like Dylan ignored his fore bearers.

[DChord568]

@Spoons

Just a point to correct here: it is perfectly legal to not play Joni Mitchell. It is also perfectly legal to not play Neil Young, Loverboy, and Rush. What is illegal (in the sense that the CRTC will enforce the matter, not the police) is not playing the required amount of Cancon–which stands at 35%, last time I checked. That could be made up of the above artists, but it need not be–no artist is mandated to be played.

As for whether Joni Mitchell was getting “illegitimate” airplay, we should consider that many of the Canadian artists that got a boost from the introduction of Cancon regulations in 1971 were one- or two-hit wonders. James Leroy and Denim? Ray Materick? A Foot in Cold Water? Crowbar? Patsy Gallant? The Parachute Club? Jane Siberry? Martha and the Muffins? I can name about one song by each of these. I do slightly better on folks like Nick Gilder, Keith Hampshire, and Ian Thomas, for whom I can name two or three. Like Joni Mitchell, all of these, and many others, spent time on Canadian charts.

But for sheer volume of well-known and common work that also qualifies as Cancon, it’s hard to beat Joni Mitchell–not forgetting, of course, the Guess Who, Burton Cummings (as a soloist), Gordon Lightfoot, Neil Young, Rush, Shania Twain, and (you knew this was coming) Celine Dion. They were more than one- or two-hit wonders; they actually kept producing fresh work, thus ensuring that they were often in the public ear. I’d suggest that Joni Mitchell didn’t get airplay because she was Canadian–many others, now mostly forgotten, were Canadian too. Rather, it was because she kept producing chartable work long after other Canadian artists with whom she once shared chart space had fallen off the charts.

I don’t get bringing the CanCon issue into Joni Mitchell at all.

Is someone saying that she would not have had the considerable success she had in the States were it not for CanCon???

I don’t honestly see how this has anything to do with it. Furthermore, the MAPL system wasn’t established until 1971, by which time Mitchell had already released her first four albums and had enjoyed a massive hit with Judy Collins’ cover of “Both Sides Now” and CSNY’s “Woodstock.” Each of those first four albums sold well, with the last two reaching the Top 20 on the album charts and the Top 10 in the UK.