I’d be interested on any opinions regarding this - the term Judeo-Christian is always thrown around as defining western culture’s religious background, but it would seem from reading Jewish texts that Christianity is a complete break from Judaism in the sense that a central idea of Judaism is that NO law can be changed or overridden, and that anyone who suggests this is a false prophet, whereas the idea that none of the OT laws matter, so long as you repent and accept Jesus as your saviour, is central to Christian faith. (Please correct me if I have these wrong).
In this way, it seems Judeo-Christian is as strange a term as Judeo-Pagan, in the sense that in both cases the later faith was derived from the earlier one, in many senses in opposition to the one it was ‘replacing’. (Note that by replacing, I mean the people who were becoming part of the new religion were in many cases previously part of the old religion).
Are Judaism and Christianity completely irreconcilable?
Christianity, esp Catholicism, is very rooted in Judaism; philosophically, historically, and culturally. Judaism follows laws because they never accepted a savior, and they never accepted a more ‘human’ deity. The YHWH they worship is the YHWH that demanded the blood of lambs on Passover and almost made Abraham sacrifice his only son. Christians worship a god that died for their sins after becoming human and loving mankind. Christians and Jews share the Old Testament, a bible that tells of a very cruel, vengeful, wrathful, inhuman god that would cause floods and kill firstborns. The New Testament, about the life and works of Jesu Christos, tells of a ‘kinder, gentler’ god that would forgive and love. However, even with all those differences, Christianity and Judaism share the same roots. Christians and Jews both accept Abraham as one of the founders, and Christians and Jews both accept the Old Testament. Hey, the Pope wears a yarmulke. That’s what Rabbis and Orthodox Jews wear as well. Both faiths worship a god that is rooted in the same concept (single, male, omnipotent, and omniscient) and plenty of the same prophets and holy men. Christianity began as a Jewish messianic cult in the Mideast. The split came when Jesus told Paul (or Peter, been a long time) “he who has seen me has seen the Father”, an obvious transgression of Judaic law. That was a split, but a split like a branch growing off of a trunk. They still share a root system, and they still share a basic structure.
To me, the Christians are just a sect of Jews who eat shellfish and think the Messiah already came. Sure, I’m lumping together two religions full of people who probably don’t want to be lumped, but then, I’m an agnostic, so nobody has to listen to me anyway.
Use of the term “Abrahamic” to encompass Judaism, Christianity, and Islam is certain to excite more opposition. They obviously aren’t the same religion, just as the African Methodist Episcopal faith isn’t the same as the African Methodist Zionist Episcopal. I just tend to think of religions like biological taxa; Judaism and Christianity are part of the same class; Christianity can be divided into the orders Protestant, Roman Catholic, and Eastern Orthodox (perhaps Mormonism would be its own order, or perhaps it would be a family of Protestantism); Eastern Orthodox can be divided into Greek, Russian, and possibly Byzantine families. Scientology is a totally different phylum. But I expect splitters to vastly outnumber lumpers when it comes to religions.
Uh, no. Mormonism is not now, nor will it ever be related to Protestantism. Most Christians consider Mormonism it’s own order because of the Book of Mormon.
I think the term is not strictly religious but cultural in the sense that it applies to certain concepts (like human dignity, the value of individual human life, etc) that are not part of other cultures.
I don’t see how it can be said that Christians share the OT, if they consider it superceded by the teachings of Jesus, but I think Derleth is basically agreeing with me - there are more differences than similarities between the two religions. There seems to be a bit of a shallow interpretation of Judaism in that post though - an interpretation that might be called ‘Judeo-Christian’, in that it acknowledges Judaism up until the point of Christ, and then sees Christianity as the true religion after that, with all Jewish teachings filtered through a need to interpret every prophecy of the OT as a referece to Jesus.
The idea of a ‘harsh’ OT God against a ‘loving’ NT God seems to prove to me the absolute split between the two faiths. I’m not quite sure what I’m hoping to get out of this thread - I guess just a range of opinions from different people (Jewish Dopers, please come to the table).
I was always disgusted that Abraham was willing to sacrifice Issac on Divine instructions.
Upon refelction, the reason I find that disgusting is my Judaeo-Christian heritage…Judaism ended human sacrifice.
Christians, BTW use the Kohain blessing, “May the Lord bless you and keep you”, etc. Communion comes from blessing bread and wine at the Sabbath dinner.
You misread me: I said that they were two branches on the same tree. More similarities than differences. And no Christian group I know of thinks the Old Testament has been replaced by the New. After all, the Decalogue is in the OT, and Christians and Jews share that. The ‘harsh’ and ‘loving’ can be seen as two aspects of the same being. Thought I said that, but apparently did not. After all, are you always mean or always gentle? Anyway, the Cs and the Js share roots, both historically and philosophically. And I agree with the ‘taxonomic’ classification of religions. I think that Islam is, perhaps, a different family in the same order, with Judaism and Christianity sharing a family but being different genii. And the Asian religions would require a different kingdom, but could be compared.
I think you are taking too wide a view here. Christians still consider the Old Testament to be the divinely inspired word of God. Christians are going on the belief that the path of salvation as described in the New Testament frees them from the Judaic Law. There is a lot more to the Old Testament than a bunch of rules, however. Christians still seek God’s guidance by studying the Old Testament, and letting God’s words in these books speak to our hearts. (Besides, Jesus said he had come to fulfill the law, not erase it.)
As to the OP, I think sailor has a good point. Most people, I would think, consider the term “Judeo-Christian” to be referring to cultural mores, as apart from style of worship or beliefs about salvation or a savior. Take the 10 Commandments, for instance. Don’t kill, commit adultery, steal, covet, etc… These values are “Judeo-Christian” in that they play an integral part of both religions. The teachings of Jesus do not negate these values.
I think you might have misunderstood why I put the words ‘harsh’ and ‘loving’ in quotes - it is this Christian view of how the two faiths view God that I was callling into question. If you spoke to any orthodox Rabbi, I would almost guarantee you that none of them would refer to their God as anything like ‘harsh’.
Also, Jewish law isn’t just based on the books of the Old Testament. There is a huge amount of what is called ‘oral law’ - mostly interpretation of the written law - that was written down a long time ago (at least several centuries ago), and which is valued as much as the written books of the Old Testament. I don’t think most Christians would even know about this canon.
I’m also a bit uncomfortable with talking about religions as if they were species of animals, as my fundamental question is looking at how you can reconcile two philosophies that oppose each other on their most fundamental points: Jews believe that the laws and customs passed down in the bible are the thing that keeps them together as a religion/race; Christians do not follow any of these laws or customs (beyond the ones that are specified as being essential for ALL people). On the other side, Christians believe that God made Himself manifest in a man who is able to take on the sins of all humanity - a belief that does not correspond to anything in Jewish theology. I know there are many superficial connections in some rituals, but I’m looking at the deeper issues.
By the way, I’m trying to annoy as few people as possible with this thread - it’s just something I’ve been thinking a lot about lately.
Jews, Christians and Moslems are “people of the Book” with a belief in the same G-d.
It is “Thou shalt not commit murder” as first published, not “Thou shall not kill”.
I was VERY surprised to learn that many people don’t consider Mormonism “Christian”. I myself would classify it as its own order – if religions could be given their own taxonomy, I’d have it as a branch coming off Protestantism (I’d be willing to give you the reasons, and they’re not intended to be offensive).
I was head of the Education Committee at a Catholic community in SLC, and I was floored when someone “corrected” me when I included Mormonism among the “Christian” faiths.
We learn a little everyday. Sometimes not what people think they’re telling us.
Check out A question on Christianity & Judaism for some more insight. The OP puts up at least 4 core beliefs that make the term Judeo-Christian an oxymoron if taken at face value.
I think divemaster had the best resolution of the term, that both encompass the 10 commandments. However, to say that Christianity is very rooted in Judaism simply isn’t true. Christianity was born out of a cult of Judaism, and at this point in time I would go so far in saying that the Christian God and the Jewish God are totally different entities. God, while refered to in the masculine, is certainly not male but genderless. Judaism has one God, Christianity (mainstream) has the Trinity, three in one - one in three and seen as pure heresy by Jews. While they may be distant cousins (with the OT being the common denominator and even then the intrepretations of the OT are vastly different) Christianity has gone down it’s own seperate path.
I would be interested in having a conversation with you off the board - I should have checked the boards before posting, but at least it showed we were on the same trip, just coming from completely different directions.
There is at least one Jewish Doper following this thread… I’m not sure if I can add anything; I just wanted to let y’all know that I’m around if you want me to help.
Yeah, and at least one mackeral-snapper to throw in some comments if it seems worthwhile. (At this point, it seems as though you have resolved your “Great Debate” and my thumbprints are all over several related threads, already.)
I think this is an interesting topic. In general, I think a lot of Christians really do feel that Christianity and Judaism are kind of similar. After, it’s mostly the same book, right? I tend to disagree, because Jewish and Christian interpretations of the Bible are so drastically different, and that doesn’t even go into the extensive Law outside of the Bible in the Talmud. Probably a large number of Christians who might see this post have never even heard of the Talmud (well, maybe not here, SDers tend to be pretty well educated), and don’t realize the extensive differences in the two religions. I would hesitate to say that Jews and Christians even have the same “background morals.” For instance, Christians are urged to “turn the other cheek,” an admonition/moral that has resonated powerfully throughout Western culture. This is not, however, a Jewish phrase. That’s kind of a lame example (I know there are people out there that could think of better ones!), but it’s the first one that comes to mind. Basically, I think the phrase “Judeo-Christian” is a way for Christians to talk about the way American culture should be and still sound ecumenical.
To say Christianity is a Jewish cult is far too simplistic, and, IMO shows an ignorance of Judaism. (Or perhaps I am just being touchy?) Christianity has followed a path that has led it so far from its roots that many/most Christians have never even heard of the Jewish holidays - that are still practiced today - mentioned in the Old Testament. Are there any (Western) Christians who fast on Yom Kippur, build Succot, and celebrate Purim?
Oh, and Mormonism is Christianity. If you believe Jesus is the savior of mankind, you’re a Christian. Period.
I look forward to reading future posts in this thread.
Hey Kyla, are you picking on me?! I should have clarified. The very beginings of Christianity, “the way”, as it was called back then, began as a Judaic cult. I even belive that the beatitudes has been attributed to the Essenes, as have other theological thoughts. Anyways, after the influx of pagan ideology (note: not theology, ideology, big difference) from the converted gentiles, it quickly became a new religion.
Of course Christians wouldn’t celebrate these holidays, let alone know their meanings. Why would they? Especially Yom Kippur, as Christians believe that their sins have already been atoned for through Jesus’ sacrifice.
I think that if Christians seriously looked into Judaism and it’s roots and theology, compare them to Christianity and it’s roots and theology, they would not only know that Christianity is no where near Judaism (other than sharing the OT (Tanach)), but many of them would seriously doubt their faith.
And some would have their mind changed totally, like me.
not “Thou shall not kill”.