It makes no difference to me what every man has ever said for two-thousand years, except One.
Yes, His judgment is just, and He judges perfectly. (John 5:30) But that does not mean that He exercizes His perfect judgment against you. He is not compelled to do that which He is capable of.
Yes, He has much to say in judgment of us. (John 8:26) But having much to say and saying much are very different things.
And yes, He came into the world for judgment, (John 9:39) but not to judge. “As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it.” — John 12:47
As I already explained, He brings the judgment because He is the Standard by which we judge ourselves. “There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.” — John 12:48
And since you’re quoting Paul, it’s very important not to cut off part of what he said because Paul is very verbose, and given to rambling. Sometimes, he is just flat out wrong. But in Romans 2, he got it right. Just before the verses you quoted, he set the context for what he was saying:
“You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.” Romans 2:1
Since you’re willing to disregard most of what Jesus said about God’s judgment, and pick out those parts that seem to support your pre-established belief, it’s clear that there is only one person whose words matter to you. His name is Libertarian.
Pentacost was the arrival of the Holy Spirit. The Second Coming is the return of the Son in glory, when he will judge the living and the dead.
Why am I not surprised that you don’t know the meaning of the term?
Your statements are out of context:
12When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”
13The Pharisees challenged him, “Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid.”
14Jesus answered, “Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going.
15You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. 16But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me.
17In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid.
18I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me.”
19Then they asked him, “Where is your father?”
20"You do not know me or my Father," Jesus replied. “If you knew me, you would know my Father also.” He spoke these words while teaching in the temple area near the place where the offerings were put. Yet no one seized him, because his time had not yet come.
21Once more Jesus said to them, “I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come.”
22This made the Jews ask, “Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, ‘Where I go, you cannot come’?”
23But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.
24I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.”
25"Who are you?" they asked.
26"Just what I have been claiming all along," Jesus replied. “I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is reliable, and what I have heard from him I tell the world.”
The claim that it is not God/the Son/the Holy Spirit that judges, but the conscience of humans, is contradicted by Jesus’ own statements and the interpretation of those statements that have been passed down for millennia.
Once again, you don’t know what you’re talking about.
He IS the Holy Spirit, Grasshopper. He, His Father, the Holy Spirit — they are One. You’ve only recently fallen off the truck, so it’s understandable that you didn’t know that we discussed whether the Pentacost was the Second Coming a couple of years ago.
By the way, you’ve quoted a portion from my favorite chapter of my favorite book — John 8. It’s the one that I was translating from the Greek when my atheism ended.
The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are simultaneously one and distincty three (no matter how ridiculous that is).
The sending of the Holy Spirit is NOT the same as the return of the Son. Or perhaps you’d like to ignore that quote about the Father leaving judgment up to the Son?
The Second Coming is the return of the Son, where He shall judge the world.
What part of this are you having trouble understanding?
What do you mean ignore it? I’ve quoted it several times now. Do you not recall Jesus saying that this generation — those to whom He was speaking — will not pass away before it sees the Son of Man return in all His glory?
The judgment is finished. The game is over. Evil has lost. Goodness prevails.
Bravo, Libertarian. I would mention that one of my favorite scripture verses is Ecclesiastes 3:11 - He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end. Such a simple, almost quiet verse, yet powerful in its scope.
Darn it, I do mostly agree with you. Yes, I find it so frustrating that any picture we draw in our minds, then attempt to convey to another, cannot by definition ever encompass the majesty of God. This human limitation can seem self-defeating.
Hmm. I have a hard time accepting this. God must be capable of effective communication with His creation, else the creation is eternally operating from a faulty comprehension of God. Or do you, rather, intend this as the explanation for man’s resistance to God? I do think people make a decision to seek God. Some do. Perhaps most do. For the incredible number of atheists on this board (my impression, of course), I see an encouraging number of religious threads opened by those I would have to call “seekers”, whether one or any would appreciate, or more likely resent, my terminology.
I admire your presentation of God. Most of all, I admire your generosity of spirit. I also think you’re overlooking something. Or perhaps, you’ve reached an entirely different conclusion. That’s what I’d like to address. To continue:
I must admit, this is where you lose me. You believe in God, you believe in Christ as the way to the Father. Correct? I hesitate to even open this tanget, but it seems to bear a great deal on the original OP. To whit: you appear to argue that any one image of God != God and at the same time you argue from the viewpoint of one with a personal knowledge and understanding of God. How can both be true? What is your foundation for belief in God and Jesus? The Bible? If yes, why do you not accept the picture of God presented in its pages? If no, from what source do you derive your understanding?
Libertarian, please accept my post with my sincere desire to understand and learn. Your response to my last post seemed rather pointed, almost sharp. If I’m pushing too hard, let me know. I enjoy your posts, your style, and your depth in this matter. Thanks for your time, as well.
I didn’t mean to be sharp. I apologize for my passion.
It is saying that a man knows the True God Who Is, however dimly, whenever — and only whenever — God has manifested Himself to him.
I might minister to someone and say, “Let me tell you about God. He is this and He is that. And so on and so forth and blah blah blah.” The person might like what he hears, or he might not. but either way, whatever decision he makes based on my ministry, his decision is about my ministry and not about God.
God is always knocking on the door to our hearts. He is the persistent Lover. Sometimes, men open their hearts readily, and God enters. Sometimes, men resist (as I did) and do not open their hearts for quite some time. But when they do, He still enters. And sometimes men never open their hearts their whole lives — for any number or reasons — but when their Spirit has been freed from the atoms, the door to their hearts will not obscure their view of God. They will see God face to face. He will enter if they allow it. He does not impose Himself; He has given us freedom of moral will.
Sometimes hearts are open, but other men stand in the way. These are Pharisees, people who place heavy burdens on the shoulders of others (“Take my yoke upon you, for my burden is light and easy to bear.” — Jesus) but do not themselves lift a finger to help: “You are gay? How dare you have sex with a man! If you cannot be straight like me, then you must abstain from consumating your affections altogether.” They strain at gnats and swallow camels, fixating on piddly shit while ignoring the very foundation of God’s law: mercy, kindness, forgiveness, and love. They search the ends of the earth for one convert, and having found him, they make him twice the son of hell they are themselves.
God is neither stupid nor unjust. He does not hold men accountable when they take to heart condemnation from other men. Those whom the Pharisees have tortured and manipulated will one day see God Himself for what He really is, and He will cradle them in His arms and smother them with kisses to heal their wounds. And those Pharisees will tremble with fear when they see that the One Whom they pissed on is what they most dread: Love.
From the Holy Spirit.
There is much in the Bible that is wonderful and edifying, particularly in John. But God is not bounded by the pages of a book, especially a book that was canonized by Roman politicians dressed in robes of silk and adorned with nuggets of gold. You can find as much about Him (that is relevant) in this book as you can in the Bible.
And upon the afternoon of the third day we reached the summit of Mount Hermon, and there He stood looking down upon the cities of the plains.
And His face shone like molten gold, and He outsretched His arms and He said to us, "Behold the earth in her green raiment, and see how the streams have hemmed the edges of her garments with silver.
"In truth the earth is fair and all that is upon her is fair.
"But there is a kingdom beyond all that you behold, and therein I shall rule. And if it is your choice, and if it is indeed your desire, you too shall come and rule with me.
“My face and your faces shall not be masked; our hand shall hold neither sword nor sceptre, and our subjects shall love us in peace and shall not be in fear of us.”
Thus spoke Jesus, and unto all the kingdoms of the earth I was blinded, and unto all the cities of walls and towers; and it was in my heart to follow the Master to His kingdom.
Then just at that moment Judas of Iscariot stepped forth. And he walked up to Jesus, and spoke and said, “Behold, the kingdoms of the world are vast, and behold the cities of David and Solomon shall prevail against the Romans. If you will be the king of the Jews we shall stand beside you with sword and shield and we shall ovecome the alien.”
But when Jesus heard this He turned upon Judas, and His face was filled with wrath. And He spoke in a voice terrible as the thunder of the sky and He said, “Get you behind me, Satan. Think you that I came down the years to rule an ant-hill for a day?”
If you are interested, here is a brief synopsis of my experience that led me from Satanism to atheism to God.
Is it any wonder I don’t start more religious threads?
I’ve read, with great interest, all these posts and have come to the conclusion (for myself, at least) that atheism is still the way for me. There’s just too much confusing and conflicting information for it to make any sense to anyone, well, me anyways. I don’t see how anyone can follow any of this and not go insane.
Start from the fundamental premise that God loves you. (Which is objectively no more or less provable then the fundamental premise that the universe is comprehensible). From there, it’s just a matter of filling in the details. And, since your reasoning is based on truth of God, God cannot be rationally disproved, any more than science can prove that science is invalid.
Ahh, therein lies the rub. I am not a person of faith (religious or otherwise), therefore it is impossible for me to accept that God loves me if I don’t believe (insert pronoun of choice) exists. I cannot accept, what appears to ME, the constant contradictions of modern religions.
It would take one hellacious (pun intended) miracle to change my mind. So, while I certainly respect everyone’s choice (or lack thereof) about religion, I have to say, no thanks, I’ll take my chances.
What about animals other than humans, Do they have a judgement day or are they not good enough, This is just a question I’ve never heard been truely answered.
Please don’t take this as belittling your question, Eman77. (Welcome to Straight Dope, by the way!) I can see how what I’m about to say can be taken as a dismissal of your question, but it isn’t intended that way.
If asking about animals other than humans, why not ask about plants? And if asking about plants, why not ask about rocks? And if asking about rocks, why not ask about cigarettes? Do cigarettes have a judgment day?
It isn’t a matter of things with brains (like humans and dogs); it is a matter of things with spirit. Man is created in the image of God. That does not mean that God has eyes and a nose (like humans and dogs). It means that man has a spirit like God. And like God, man has a moral free-will. He may, like God, decide how much he values the aesthetic called goodness.
Animals, plants, rocks, and cigarettes do not make these sort of moral decisions. They are neither moral nor immoral, but amoral.
Vorlon, science cannot show that the concept of science is invalid. Or, if you have an experiment that would demonstrate the invalidity of the experimental method, I’d like to hear it.
