I can agree with what you’re saying here, concerning Christians and non Christians. However, if I’m asked my opinion on the subject in general, I will give it whether the person asking is a Christian or non Christian.
I think the reason people are critical of you is because it seems as though homosexual’s are number one on the “Must tell them they’re are sinner” list. I could be wrong, but you don’t spend the energy elsewhere that you spend on condemning homosexuals. The bible is littered with sins, yet the only one I see you constantly condemning is homosexuality.
You don’t have to tell untruths. What is the Truth? That God Loves us. If you truly loved us, that’s the message you’d tell us. If it turns out that homosex is a sin, then the Holy Spirit will convict us. But he can’t do that if we’re not listening. We won’t listen if don’t show us Love first.
But to us, it seems you’d rather not have us in the fold to begin with, since you won’t quit harping on how sinful we are, while disregarding your own. You are just as sinful as any of the rest of us.
To get back to the original topic of this thread, His4Ever, how do you feel when some of us tell you your current lifestyle is sinful? Does it make you want to understand us any better, to become more like us, or does it drive you away? More to the point, do you believe we have any right to tell you your lifestyle is sinful? Let me break this out a bit further. Do I have more or less of a right to tell you your lifestyle is sinful than say, Esprix?
I’ve admitted to judging. For that matter, I’ve done in during rush hour on a Port Authority bus. When telling a sister Christian about what I did later that day, I also disagreed with her about whether my actions were correct. In other words, we both judged each other. I also gave her my church’s telephone number and said if she had any issues as to whether my actions were Christian, would she please take them up with my priest, because he had some authority to judge my actions while she didn’t. Hmmm. Come to think of it, this is rather close to the situation Scotti described. Let me back up a bit.
I used to ride the same bus a fellow who appeared to be mentally handicapped did. He was a nice fellow, but he spoke loudly, had a speech impairment, and gave some indication of having an IQ which was well below normal. Last February, after he got off the bus, a fellow on the bus made a rude, public comment about him. I told him firmly that I disagreed (note that is an understatement) and that I did not appreciate his remarks. He blustered a bit saying, “I wasn’t talking to you,” but he did shut up and I never heard anything more from him again. When I got to work, I told our receptionist about this in a sort of “Can you believe this jerk?!” tone. We’d established that we were both Christian, but she told me that she thought it was a sin for me to intervene and that I should have left it to God. I was (and am!) just as firmly convinced that not intervening would have been a sin and that God leaves it to us humans to act. She asked if I wasn’t afraid of violence; I think I said something about trusting God, society, and myself to protect me. I don’t know anything of her background, but I wonder if she had experienced violence or pain for speaking out. I know I have, but I’ve seen and experienced worse happens when no one speaks out. In her book, it was a sin to speak; in mine, it was a sin not to speak. She didn’t know me, didn’t know my background, didn’t even know what sort of Christian I was, so I felt she had no authority to call my behaviour un-Christian. No doubt, if I’d done so, she would have felt the same of me. Then again, presumably the guy on the bus thought I had no authority to judge him.
This is complicated. There are people in my life whose judgement and wisdom I respect, some of them Christian, some of them not. To them I have voluntarily given authority to judge me. I also would expect anyone to call me out on my behaviour if they saw me causing harm to someone, whether it’s by making rude remarks on a bus or taking a tire iron to someone. There are also people to whom I would have no problem saying, “You know, you’re really doing the wrong thing, here,” although I wouldn’t expect them to appreciate it.
In terms of evangelizing, among the people I run with, saying, “You! You’re a sinner because you’re homosexual / Wiccan / a nasty s.o.b!” won’t work. That attitude has driven some of these people away from Christianity. It also makes me sound a bit holier-than-thou, and that’s not something I believe. My approach is more a sort of, “Yes, you’ve made mistakes. So have I. The good news is, we don’t have to atone for them. Atonement has been taken care of through Christ our Lord. It’s OK. He knows what it’s like to be a fallible human being. So, having repented of them, are you ready to move on and try again?”
Sorry if this has rambled a bit – it wasn’t at all what I was going to write, but perhaps this will be more effective. I’ll assume, as usual God knows what He’s got me doing, because sometimes I know I sure don’t!
CJ
Sighhhh…How did we get started on this whole subject again anyway? I see nothing wrong with showing love to homosexuals, but to me that love does not include condoning.
And as to what you consider to be my “living in sin”, I don’t consider that to be the case. I don’t believe I’m in a perpetual state of sin. I’ve asked forgiveness for my past and I’m going on with the husband I have. You’re entitled to believe what you want about it, but it doesn’t change my feelings on the other subject.
Then homosexuals aren’t either?
His4Ever, you brought it up when you said,
When you married a third time, does that say that you love your sin more than God? The reason I ask is because by the teachings of Christ, you are doing exactly what you say homosexuals are sinful for doing. Last September, I started a thread asking what homosexuals should do. You said, “it’s my belief that a person who is a homosexual and considers themselves a Christian should live a celibate lifestyle just as I believe a single Christian person should live a celibate lifestyle.” Here’s a link to the thread. Your post is about halfway down the page. By my standards, you are holding others to a standard you are unwilling or unable to hold yourself to, and you are showing them no mercy or understanding. Indeed, the devotional you posted equates understanding with being a traitor to God.
This is all a hijack, though. My questions to you are as follows:
[ul][li]How do you feel when some of us tell you your current lifestyle is sinful? [/li][li]Does it make you want to understand us any better, to become more like us, or does it drive you away? [/li][li]More to the point, do you believe we have any right to tell you your lifestyle is sinful? [/li][li]Do I have more or less of a right to tell you your lifestyle is sinful than say, Esprix? [/ul][/li]
Yes, that’s pretty much a direct cut and paste from my earlier post, but to me, it’s the important part. I’m not going to change your views on homosexuality, and you’re not going to change mine. Personally, I don’t expect to. The topic Scotti put to us concerns judgement. That’s what I’m interested in hearing your views on.
By the way, I’m glad you don’t believe you’re “in a perpetual state of sin.” Personally, I figure I am. For openers, while I think I’ve done a pretty good job of loving God with all my heart, with all my soul, and with all my mind today, I’m quite sure I haven’t loved my neighbor as myself. For openers, the Steelers are playing the Browns and the Browns are winning! 
Nor am I bearing much love in my heart for the man who killed and skinned a dog. Actually, the Steelers stand a chance of pulling this one out, so I think part of my soul might be loving the Steelers, rather than God at the moment. My mind’s certainly torn. We all sin. Whether you believe that began with Adam or the first time some hominid ate food he stole from someone else, we fall short of the standard of perfect love we are required to aspire to. If we did not sin, if we could meet God’s standards by our own actions, then Christ’s sacrifice would be unnecessary and Christianity would be just another obscure, Jewish cult.
CJ
Hmmm. The Steelers have scored twice while I’ve been posting to this thread and are now ahead. Think I could pass this of as God looking favourably on me?
Don’t worry – I’m not foolish enough to try! :Looks around nervously for an out-of-season lightning bolt:
P.S. Sorry, vanilla. I’m assuming you’re a Browns fan.
CJ
HA!
No way!
I hate the browns.
My son and I had a bet, if the Steelers win (whom I picked) he has to go to bed earlier.
Yay!
It was an exciting game, though.
(I jsut think the browns stink is all)
His4ever wrote:
Then you’re in a perpetual state of denial.
You misjudge me, His (while I know your real name from our e-mails, I won’t use it here since it might be used against you). I’ve come to know you a little better from our exchanges on this board and the Pizza Parlor, and I do believe you to have a loving heart. What I’m (hopefully lovingly) calling you to task about is the manner of your presentation of the Gospel on a message board, which do, unfortunately, come across to others as judgmental – you’ve seen enough Pit threads on that to be quite well aware of it.
I care as much about you as about CJ or Homebrew or anybody else I count as a friend here, including Joe Cool and Jersey Diamond, and I am not out to castigate you or condemn you – just encourage you to consider how better to convey the message you wish to get across, which at rock bottom ought to be winning souls for Christ, not pointing out or condoning-or-refusing-to sins you believe that you observe.
I’m quite confident that you are convinced that your understanding of Scripture is adequate to speak on what it does and does not say. But contrast what you’ve had to say so far with what jjrt, who concurs in many of your beliefs including the pertinent one, did in a real-life situation closely analagous to these discussions – she made very clear that she accepted and loved the person before addressing the issue of his putative sin – and then showed him the Bible and let him judge for himself whether what he had done fell under the head of what she understood Scripture to condemn.
I do realize that you say that you are loving and not condemnatory – but you need, a bit more, to show it – without compromising tenets of your faith. I leave it to you to figure out how to do that – my suggestions along that line have apparently been seen by you as “asking me to condone sin” and “watering down the Gospel” so I won’t insist on them.
To be entirely fair to His, she simply responded to a request for opinions issued by, IIRC, gobear, on the specific topic of homosexuality. Apropos this question, we gave our friend Rich a ride to work on Friday, and he noted that the man who won the Florida lottery had put $100,000 of his winnings into a cashier’s check he attempted to give to the Salvation Army – who rejected it as “tainted money” won from gambling. I suspect I know His’s stance on that issue too – but she hasn’t been asked about that. She was asked about gay sex, and responded.
And when I read this, what immediately came to my mind is the guy caught on a rooftop by a flood who asks God to save him. And I may have imagined I heard a voice in the back of my mind saying, “But I did handle it – I sent CJ to say what was necessary.” 
I was cheering for the Browns, mostly because of my disliking for Pittsburgh. (There may be in sin somewhere in there…) Oh well. It was a good game.
Others might say I’m in a perpetual state of sin with regards to birth control. This correlates somewhat to my stance on homosexuality, which is the same: I doubt that it is sinful all by itself, in practice or not; other circumstances surrounding the action must be taken into account when deciding what is ‘right’ and what is ‘wrong’ for any given person. In no way do I see this state of sin to be worse with homosexuality.
I agree that a lot of people want to zero in on that one thing, repeatedly. (Whether His4ever does it or not I don’t know.) That indicates to me that the person is part of the Christian sociopolitical movement of late, more than telling me what that person actually believes.
Originally posted by Polycarp
Second, and with a request to all participants not to regard the answer as an opportunity for a flamefest, I’d like to make two requests of jjrt:
- Assume that your daughter’s gay friend has listened to what you have to say, and thought about it. (This may or may not have happened; but for purposes of this post let’s assume that he did.) Now he comes to you, realizing that you believe that the Bible calls his sexuality sinful and that you personally love him, and asks you for your practical advice. How should he deal with his sexuality? What does he need to do? How can he “get right with God” in your eyes?
What will (or did) you answer him? I don’t have particular expectations and am not "setting you up"for argument – I am sincerely interested in knowing how you would answer those questions, and in how he feels about your attitude toward him, your views on his sexuality, and what you will have answered to my questions.
Assume that your daughter’s gay friend has listened to what you have to say, and thought about it. (This may or may not have happened; but for purposes of this post let’s assume that he did.). This had not happened, until today, so we won’t be assuming since he is here.
Now he comes to you, realizing that you believe that the Bible calls his sexuality sinful and that you personally love him, and asks you for your practical advice.
How should he deal with his sexuality?
He should deal with in the way that would make him the best person possible,
not condemning himself, but being proud of who he is.
What does he need to do?
I would tell him he needs to study his Bible and not take my word for it, talk to
Counselors, and Ministers and anyone else he feels the need to talk to, but above all to come to his own conclusion without being influenced by me or anyone else but consider all opinions with the exception of those that are very degrading to him.
How can he “get right with God” in your eyes?
This is strictly my belief and mine alone. I realize there are people who “get right with God” in many different beliefs so I’m not flaming anyone or any religion.
In my eyes he would need to
Repent of his sins
Confess Jesus as the Christ and the living Son of God
Be baptized for the remission of sin, and receive the Holy Spirit (baptized by immersion and baptized into Christ)
Partake of communion each Lord’s Day
That seems to be no more than any of us are called to do, although, I must admit that I haven’t partaken of communion since Christmas Eve since I’m in the process of looking for a new church.
Welcome to the Board, by the way!
CJ
I suspect you are right. This thread has gone several different ways, and I have to remind myself that this wasn’t an unsolicited opinion.
Originally posted by Polycarp
- After having given that answer, would you be so kind as to allow him to post (without anyone looking over his shoulder) his honest reactions to what you’ve had to say and how you’ve reacted towards him?
how he feels about your attitude toward him, your views on his sexuality, and what you will have answered to my questions
Let’s see where to start. I guess that the beginning is a good place to start, and that is where I will begin. In regards to the questions that my “mom” was asked by Polycarp, I am here to answer them…no one has any influence on the answers that I give to these questions, these are my thoughts and feelings only. How people react to them is there decision.
1.) My honest reaction to what my “mom” told me when I first came to her with the question of where it said homosexuality was wrong was one shock, and somewhat scary since I do believe in God and Jesus, I didn’t even know that it was in the Bible, I had just heard that at school, and since my “mom” is one of the smartest people I know on the Bible I asked her. I mean it scares me, but it wasn’t how she presented the information or anything…she didn’t come out and tell me that I was going to hell, she let me read it for myself (Lev 18:22 , Lev 20:13 is what I read), and I in turn came to my own conclusion. Which is that homosexuality is wrong, but I can’t change who I am, or what I may or may not feel.
2.) As to your question about how she has reacted to me…well she has only showed me the feelings of love, compassion and caring that a mother is suppose to show her child. Even though I am not her child by birth I guess what I could say is that she sort of adopted me as her own, and has never in any condemned me to hell because of my sexuality, or anything else.
3.) Her attitude towards me is that of a friend and of a mother. I have never received a slanderous attitude or comment from her, or anyone that I have been around in her family, or in the outside world. She is one of the best people that I know and is often there when I need her, and when I don’t need her.
4.) As for her on view of how I should “get right” with God, well that is her opinion and I agree with her when she says that I need to read the bible, confess Christ as the living God, and be baptized. That is really the only thing that I can do.
5.) As for her views on my sexuality, well those are her views, I personally do believe that it is wrong, and I am the one who came to that decision. I can’t change who I am and I can’t change what is in the bible. That is the same thing that I told my “mom” when we discussed this. As for the answers to your post and questions that you have asked her, I think that she has answered them to the best of her ability, and tried to show her p.o.v. without being slanderous, or hateful towards anyone else.
My “mom” has in no way ever condemned me or anything like, in fact she is the one of the few true friends that I have…After all “you choose your socks by color, and your friends by their character…Choosing your socks by there character makes no sense, so choosing you friends by their color is unthinkable”…the same thing applies with sexuality. She didn’t choose to help me ‘cause I am homosexual, she chose to help me because of the type of person I am…and I thank her for that.
That’s cool, Golden Boy, and I thank both you and jjrt for your frankness.
I’d hoped she would expand a bit more on how she sees you as dealing appropriately with your sexuality – but I certainly cannot fault her answer.
Just for the record, and with no intent of beating the issue into the ground any more than it already has been, there are some competent theologians and Bible scholars who believe that the two quotes you identified, along with the ones His4Ever ran up earlier in this thread, are directed not at the actual act itself but at its use by Jewish (and in the N.T. Christian) men to merely gratify lust outside a committed marriage relationship. I’d recommend Daniel Helminiak’s What the Bible Really Says About Homosexuality and John Shelby Spong’s Living in Sin. (I know Spong personally, though not closely; he’s a retired bishop of my church and a deeply compassionate and thoughtful man.)
As I said, that is not to undermine her witness to you, but to aid you in your own exploration of how you are going to make your sexuality work in your ongoing walk with Christ. There are things each man says that I disagree with.
And I’m very glad for you that you have someone with that much love who has come into your life and sustained you.
Thank you jjrt, as well. You’ve shown more of the essence of Christianity in less than 20 posts than some of have in 200, and I include myself in that.
Golden Boy, I hope this won’t be your last post here. It’s a marvelous community we’ve got.
Good night all,
CJ
Oh, and one other point that I think needs to be made:
The Bible is not the answer nor the way to salvation.
Jesus is the Answer, and the Way. (Sheesh: I sound like a Christian bumper sticker!)
But the point I’m making is that your allegiance needs to be to Jesus Christ. The Bible is the foremost witness to Him and what He expects of you – and the Gospels in particular are key to this; the rest of the N.T. is Paul, John, Peter, etc.'s inspired opinions on how to live out the Gospel commandments, and the O.T. is how God worked in and through the Jewish people prior to Jesus’s birth.
But never let it, or anything else, get in the way of the relationship between you and Him. I would see absolutely nothing sacrilegious in someone who is feeling confused and led away from God by a given Bible passage taking the Bible and throwing it across the room and simply praying and meditating on what God expects of him in his particular circumstances. Paul and John are chock full of good advice – but it’s good advice for most times and places, not the be-all and end-all of what God has to say.
He’ll speak in your heart if you will listen to Him.
Scotticher (and anyone else who’s interested): I’m given to understand that we’re not to judge even our brethren in Christ unless we’re the duly constituted church court for such an action. Where am I wrong on that?