Judging vs Condoning vs Interpretation....Another Christian Debate

[Scotticher]

Some time ago, I asked a question of Joe_Cool in a thread. He answered me, but by the time I had composed my reply the thread had died and I did not want to resurrect it…I felt it was a thread that was best given a rest. It was a subject I felt deserved a discussion, but decided that “bumping” that particular thread wasn’t worth HAVING the discussion. I asked Polycarp for advice, and he felt I should open up a thread here in GD to discuss this issue.

The thing is, I just couldn’t find a way to reword my post in such a way as to NOT bring Joe_Cool and His4Ever into it, and I just didn’t feel comfortable doing that. It just felt like I would be talking behind people’s backs, and I would NEVER want to do that.

Now, however, there is another thread in the Pit concerning both of these posters, and so I am going to link that thread of which I speak and open a discussion with my original (unposted) post.

Please forgive me I did this all wrong…I have never felt that I am worthy of debating in this forum. I believe what I believe, and I have no desire to debate it with anyone. I need no proof to solidify my faith, and I have no desire to “convince” anyone that I am right and they are wrong. I really just want to discuss the issue, NOT the posters.

The Thread That Gave Birth To My Response

*Originally posted by Joe_Cool *
**We are commanded to judge those who call themselves brothers, but NOT to judge those outside the church, because that is God’s business. **

I agree with this, with one concern, or question. Which I will address later.

That is not to say that we are to condone sin, because our job is to spread the gospel.

I also agree with this, but the problem is…what if your interpretation of the Scriptures and mine differs as to what is sin and what is not? See, to me, it is clear that something like “Judge not that ye be not judged” is obvious and without any interpretation other than the one that I have always been given. Therefore, it is clear to me that “judging” is a sin. I reserve “judgement” on homosexuality, however, because to me there IS no clear and unequivocal statement that homosexulity is a sin. And until I see a clear statement in the Scripture that it IS, I can only “judge” by other clear statements that ARE in the Scriptures. By which I mean, if something isn’t clearly stated as a sin but it is hurtful or damaging to others…to me, that is clearly a sin as it goes against OTHER commandments. If I don’t see that something is clearly STATED as a sin, and it is NOT breaking any clear (to me) commandments, I am in no position to “judge” whether it IS a sin or not…only God can do that, or SHOULD do that. And then, there is the question of what is condoning sin? I mean, if someone tells a lie, I can say “The Bible says it is wrong to lie.” Or I can say “Lying is wrong.” Neither of these would be, IMO, “condoning” sin. They also wouldn’t be “judging” anyone…I believe lying is wrong, unethical, immoral and a SIN. If you just told a lie and you choose to feel I am condemning you, sobeit. I have stated my belief that the Bible states that lying is a sin. I have not sat in judgement on you. If you were to say “So, are you saying I am a sinner?” My reply would of course be “Yes…and I think that it is sort of a moot point, actually, since I don’t believe ANY of us are without sin, so it doesn’t really matter what KIND of sinner you ARE, EVERYONE SINS!”

Everybody knows the “Jesus loves you and you can be saved” part, but equally important is the part that is neglected: you are a sinner.

Yes. However, the Bible clearly states that we are ALL sinners, we ALL come short of the glory of God. And it is ALSO clearly stated that no sin is worse than any other sin in God’s eyes…thus, sins of pride and judgement, unkindness and jealousy, coveting, anger…these are clearly stated sins, and I don’t know anyone who hasn’t felt or even acted on at least some of these. You and me included. EVERYONE included. I don’t think we need to harp on WHAT sins a person is committing, since it doesn’t matter…we are ALL sinners, the point is what we can DO about it. We can present the gospel, some of us more eloquently than others (and I am NOT including myself in the latter) and then it is the Holy Spirit’s “job” to convict. NOT mine, NOT yours. IMHO. We can live our lives so the love of Christ shines through. I try to do this. I don’t always succeed.

IF, on the other hand, I see that someone is sinning AND CAUSING HARM TO ANOTHER, at THAT point I feel that a line has been crossed and it is time to say that a person has sinned in such a way that society/the church/the government has a right…possibly even an obligation to step in and take a hand in whatever the situation is.

…what I see His4ever doing is reporting what the bible says about sinful behavior.

AND

The big question is this: Is H4e really condemning or not?

Well, my belief is that she HAS been condemnatory toward Homosexuals, AND …the people she has been condemnatory toward are NOT necessarily her brothers or sisters in Christ, (again, not our place to judge) so I don’t believe it is Biblical for her to judge them. (Leaving aside any question of whether or not Homosexuality IS a sin, which we obviously don’t agree on…you believe it clearly IS, I don’t know and am very glad I am not the one who has to make that judgement. However, I am willing to admit that my belief might be gleaned more from the apparent “spirit” of her words than the words themselves. Should I feel compelled to address this with her again, as a sister in Christ, I will certainly do a search and a lot of reading of threads before I open my mouth about it. Actually, the one time I tried to address this with her, she appeared to question whether I WAS a “sister in Christ”…her response to me appeared to suggest that I am not REALLY a Christian, that if I DIDN’T agree with HER interpretation of the Scriptures, I wasn’t REALLY a Christian. Possibly I was being too sensitive.

The Thread I Am Referring To NOW

We know that she believes the Bible to be God’s word, as do you and I, and she believes the declaration that homosexual behavior is sinful to be according to God’s will.

I actually do believe that H4E is not trying to exhibit hate. I think that she is trying to show love for others by sharing the truth as she sees it. I believe that she believes that she is doing God’s will. I just don’t AGREE that in this instance she IS doing God’s Will. As you stated earlier, and I agree with you wholeheartedly, we are NOT to judge those outside the church, because that is God’s business. I believe that she has crossed that line.

Now, as to judging those within the body of believers. Many people, sincere and true Christians, have differing beliefs. Differing interpretations of Scripture that lead them to divergent conclusions. For instance, I know people who believe that if you are not Baptized, you are not REALLY a Christian. I have been baptized, it was an outward sign of my inward faith and I made the decison to be baptized as an adult. I do NOT, however feel that the Bible states that if a Christian is not baptized, they are not REALLY a Christian. As I have said, I do not feel that the Bible states that Homosexuality is a sin. You DO feel that it does. I am willing to agree to disagree with you, and I guess we will find out for sure by and by…in the meantime, I am secure in my faith. I can see that you are secure in yours. Where do you draw the line?

Now I can see that I am turning this into a “debate” if you will, and I know that I shouldn’t be doing that in this thread. My initial inclination was to email you, and I actually started this post as an email. But then…well, since I asked here and you answered me here, I felt I should respond here. I guess I have said all I have to say, so please don’t feel that you have to answer me.

One more thing…I don’t know if His4Ever is even here anymore, of if she is reading this, but I feel I should say that I am a bit uncomfortable discussing her behaviour/beliefs since she doesn’t even appear to be “in the room.” I tried to figure out a way to do this without directly addressing her…what I really wanted to do was to discuss this whole issue IN GENERAL of “What is judging, what is NOT and when is it a sin?” But there didn’t seem to be a way to do it in the context of this thread without addressing the person who brought it up in my mind and heart. So …I don’t think anything I say could offend you, H4E, but if I did offend you or hurt you in any way I apologize. Sincerely.
Well, there you have it. I also apologize for not posting my actual posts…I understand that there is a way to do this, but I don’t know how.

[JThunder]

*Originally posted by Scotticher *
See, to me, it is clear that something like “Judge not that ye be not judged” is obvious and without any interpretation other than the one that I have always been given. Therefore, it is clear to me that “judging” is a sin.

With all due respect, I think you need to read that passage (Matthew 7:1-5) in its context. Jesus wasn’t condemning judgment per se; rather, he was condemning hypocritical judgment.

For example, note that Jesus didn’t say, “NEVER judge.” Rather, he said, “Judge not, lest ye be judged.” The clear implication is that if you judge, you leave your own life open to scrutiny as well.

Also note that he didn’t say,“Never point out the speck in someone’s eye.” Quite the contrary; verse 5 says “Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.” Once again, judgment alone is not prohibited, but hypocritical judgment is.

In fact, the injunction “Don’t you ever judge!” is self-refuting. It is itself a judgment that someone’s action (i.e. judging) is wrong. So not only do we see that judgment is not prohibited by Christ’s teachings, we also see that an outright prohibition on judgment would be inconsistent and self-contradictory.

[Scotticher]

Yes, I see that. However, since we ALL sin, to me this means that until you no longer sin, which isn’t going to happen IMHO, you are not in a position to judge. To me, it is clear that what this means is that only God, or Christ are perfect and thus in a position to judge others.

Of course, once again, this is your interpretation…and MY interpretation…of Scripture. See how sticky this all gets?

[grimpixie]

It is clear the interpretation of Biblical (or other religious) texts can cause people to feel judged, whether or not that was the intention. If I state that when I read parts of the Bible, I gain the understanding that God sees any deviation from the sexual “norms” of a man and a woman in a marriage relationship as a perversion of His plan for humanity, then it is quite understandable that a gay person who has struggled for years with being different from those around him/her and has now “come out” and has finally found happiness in a same-sex relationship would feel judged and condemned by my statement.

There are, however ways of expressing one’s opinion and ways of expressing, and learning to follow commandment number 2 is all about understanding the difference between the two…

Grim

[JThunder]

*Originally posted by Scotticher *
**Yes, I see that. However, since we ALL sin, to me this means that until you no longer sin, which isn’t going to happen IMHO, you are not in a position to judge. To me, it is clear that what this means is that only God, or Christ are perfect and thus in a position to judge others. **

There are a couple of ways to answer that. First, I don’t think it means that you should be absolutely sinless before you condemn the sins of others. Rather, you should make sure that you are not practicing a particular sin before you condemn it in other people. As verse 1 says, “For with what judgment you use, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.”

Second, we must draw a distinction between occasional lapses and habitual practicing of a particular sin. It’s one thing to stumble; it’s another thing to sin with impunity.

Third, when we do judge other people’s sins, we should not do so in a way that suggests we are immune to sin ourselves. Rather, we must be acutely aware of the possibility of our own moral failure.

The New Testament is rife with commands that require exercising a measure of judgment. 2 Timothy 3:16-17, for example, exhorts believers to use the scriptures “for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.” Obviously, one can not reprove or correct without first recognizing a sinful offense, and condemning it for what it is. So the claim “Never judge someone else for anything!” is not just self-refuting; it is also incosistent with the body of New Testament teaching.

[Scott_Dickerson]

It’s not clear to me whether a self-described non-Christian has standing to make a useful contribution to this thread; but I suppose I’ll find that out soon enough.

Jesus spoke Aramaic. I’m not such how well first-century Nazarene Aramaic is known at present, but let us suppose it to be very well understood. There is still the awkward fact that we don’t have Jesus’ exact words, as spoken, but rather the end result of a series of translations. By nature, a translation depends upon the making of an interpretation, and every interpretation has, to some degree, a certain slant derived from the interpreter’s culture.

And some would argue that what we have is not, and was never really alleged to be, Jesus’ exact words in the modern sense of the “transcript,” but rather that we have a sincere and respectful paraphrase of his attitude, perhaps using a striking maxim then in circulation.

But let’s note only the interpretatinal question. What did Jesus mean when he employed the terms we read as “judging” and “judgement?” In know the “judges” in the old testament were “military and civil leaders” who exercized certain powers of rulership. Is this the same term? Might the thrust of Jesus’ comment be something like: “Don’t throw your weight around and bully people just because you’re momentarily able to; someday you’ll have to answer to an even bigger bigshot than you suppose yourself to be!”

In other words, he may not be telling people to refrain from drawing moral conclusions, or even from verbalizing them; but rather to particularly refrain from using those conclusions to impose upon others, oppress others, demean others, etc.

If that analysis happens to be correct, what are the real-world implications? I suggest that it lifts from the believing Christian one burden, but imposes another. You do not not NOT have to regard yourself as the warden of someone else’s sinful conduct: you can relax. BUT you are granted a “license to judge”–indeed, you ought to do so–with the added burden of finding ways to do it that do not demean or oppress others. Good luck. “Of course I love you, but as a Christian I think homosexuality is an abomination” fails the test.

By the way, I believe the word translated as “sin” means something like “a falling-short,” “a missing-of-the-mark.” Like getting an answer wrong in arithmetic. A minor misdemeanor, not a high crime.

[king_of_spain]

*Originally posted by JThunder *
There are a couple of ways to answer that. First, I don’t think it means that you should be absolutely sinless before you condemn the sins of others. Rather, you should make sure that you are not practicing a particular sin before you condemn it in other people. As verse 1 says, "For with what judgment you use, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you."

In the famous story where Jesus came upon Pharisees about to stone an adulteress and told them “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone,” do you believe that he meant they were all specifically adulterers (and not just that they were all sinners in general)? If so, why? I see nothing in the story to indicate this.

Second, we must draw a distinction between occasional lapses and habitual practicing of a particular sin. It’s one thing to stumble; it’s another thing to sin with impunity.

Why? Does it say that? (I’m assuming here that you’re a Biblical literalist; if not, never mind.)

**The New Testament is rife with commands that require exercising a measure of judgment. 2 Timothy 3:16-17, for example, exhorts believers to use the scriptures “for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.” Obviously, one can not reprove or correct without first recognizing a sinful offense, and condemning it for what it is. **

But it does not specifically say to use the scriptures for reproving, correcting and instructing other people; therefore it seems to me that, in light of the verses on non-judgement already mentioned, it would be more consistent to interpret that as meaning to use the scriptures for reproving, correcting and instructing oneself.

[Scotticher]

*Originally posted by JThunder *
There are a couple of ways to answer that. First, I don’t think it means that you should be absolutely sinless before you condemn the sins of others. Rather, you should make sure that you are not practicing a particular sin before you condemn it in other people. As verse 1 says, "For with what judgment you use, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you."

The thing is, I don’t think that we are commanded to point out a specific sin they are committing to non-believers. After all, one sin is as bad as any other in God’s eyes…it is the fact that we are all imperfect that makes it necessary to accept God’s Grace, so it doesn’t really MATTER what sin a person is practicing…we have ALL sinned and come short of the Glory of God. Unless, of course, the sin they are practicing is hurtful to other people. In which case it becomes a matter of the community and should be dealt with. The gospel commands us to present the good news of redemption, necessary because we ALL sin. I believe that the Holy Spirit is the one who should be in charge of conviction, NOT us. I believe this is supported by the Bible, again it is my interpretation of the Scriptures.

If a person tells a lie, I have no problem with saying that lying is wrong, a sin, and hurtful to others. I DO have a problem with people saying “YOU told a lie, you are a sinner and you are going to hell because of THIS SIN.”

Second, we must draw a distinction between occasional lapses and habitual practicing of a particular sin. It’s one thing to stumble; it’s another thing to sin with impunity.

And again, (and I agree with you wholeheartedly) isn’t this another situation where it is believers who we are talking about?

Third, when we do judge other people’s sins, we should not do so in a way that suggests we are immune to sin ourselves. Rather, we must be acutely aware of the possibility of our own moral failure.

Once again, I agree with you totally.

**The New Testament is rife with commands that require exercising a measure of judgment. 2 Timothy 3:16-17, for example, exhorts believers to use the scriptures “for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.” Obviously, one can not reprove or correct without first recognizing a sinful offense, and condemning it for what it is. So the claim “Never judge someone else for anything!” is not just self-refuting; it is also incosistent with the body of New Testament teaching. **

First, let me say that 1 and 2nd Timothy were letters written to Timothy by Paul concerning the believers in Timothy’s church. I believe that Paul was exhorting Timothy about behavior by believers in that church. I do not believe that this passage has anything to do with judging non-believers. It appears to me that this is once again an example of how the Lord expects us to help and instruct our brothers and sisters in Christ…in order to help us to present the love of Christ in a manner consistant with the Scriptures. I have no problem with someone lovingly discussing a “mote in the eye” of another believer…for my purposes, let us say me. I believe that we all have the obligation to help each other better express the love of Christ.

I’m thinking I didn’t word my OP or the thread title very well. I was mostly asking for a debate concerning how we, as Christians, should handle things we believe are sins in reference to non-believers. I was specifically referring to people who believe it is a sin and express condemnation toward non-believers who are homosexual. If we DO believe something is a sin, where is the line between expressing the love of Christ by sharing the gospel but not judging them and CONDONING their sin, should we perceive is as such?

[sub]THIS is why I stay out of GD. I am LOUSY at this.[/sub]

[Scotticher]

*Originally posted by Scott Dickerson *
It’s not clear to me whether a self-described non-Christian has standing to make a useful contribution to this thread; but I suppose I’ll find that out soon enough.

You are very welcome in this thread, Scott. I find your discussion thought provoking and interesting.

But let’s note only the interpretatinal question. What did Jesus mean when he employed the terms we read as “judging” and “judgement?” In know the “judges” in the old testament were “military and civil leaders” who exercized certain powers of rulership. Is this the same term? Might the thrust of Jesus’ comment be something like: "Don’t throw your weight around and bully people just because you’re momentarily able to; someday you’ll have to answer to an even bigger bigshot than you suppose yourself to be!"

In some ways, I think this is quite accurate. I don’t think you are referring to God here, but I see this as quite true from my perspective. I think that when I stand before God in the hereafter, He is most likely going to expect me to account for any such behaviour I might inflict on anyone. A quite important thing to remember.

In other words, he may not be telling people to refrain from drawing moral conclusions, or even from verbalizing them; but rather to particularly refrain from using those conclusions to impose upon others, oppress others, demean others, etc.

I believe that there is a lot more to it than that, but I think that this is quite correct, and I think that ALL would benefit from following this code.

If that analysis happens to be correct, what are the real-world implications? I suggest that it lifts from the believing Christian one burden, but imposes another. You do not not NOT have to regard yourself as the warden of someone else’s sinful conduct: you can relax. BUT you are granted a “license to judge”–indeed, you ought to do so–with the added burden of finding ways to do it that do not demean or oppress others. Good luck. “Of course I love you, but as a Christian I think homosexuality is an abomination” fails the test.

I agree. And I would have to say that I believe this can be summed up with the second greatest commandment…“Love thy neighbor as thyself.”

**By the way, I believe the word translated as “sin” means something like “a falling-short,” “a missing-of-the-mark.” Like getting an answer wrong in arithmetic. A minor misdemeanor, not a high crime. **

I don’t agree with this. I think sin is NOT a minor misdemeanor, like getting a wrong answer in arithmetic. I would consider sin to be cheating to get a RIGHT answer in arithmetic. However, any way you describe it, sin is a wrong thing you did/do. IMHO.

[Scotticher]

*Originally posted by king of spain *
In the famous story where Jesus came upon Pharisees about to stone an adulteress and told them “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone,” do you believe that he meant they were all specifically adulterers (and not just that they were all sinners in general)? If so, why? I see nothing in the story to indicate this.

I also interpret it this way. Let he who is without sin, since it does not specify the sin of adultery, indicates to me that He is referring to the fact that we ALL sin and are not in any position to judge.

**But it does not specifically say to use the scriptures for reproving, correcting and instructing other people; therefore it seems to me that, in light of the verses on non-judgement already mentioned, it would be more consistent to interpret that as meaning to use the scriptures for reproving, correcting and instructing oneself. **

I also agree with this, with the aforementioned caveat that we ARE instructed in other Scriptures to help each other as believers to live our lives as Christ would have us do.

Thank you for your thoughts.

[Scotticher]

*Originally posted by grimpixie *
**It is clear the interpretation of Biblical (or other religious) texts can cause people to feel judged, whether or not that was the intention. <snip> There are, however ways of expressing one’s opinion and ways of expressing, and learning to follow commandment number 2 is all about understanding the difference between the two…

Grim **

Yes, Grim, I agree with you and what I was/am attempting to do here is to figure out where the line is between judging people when I have no right to do so, and condoning sin. Particularly when sometimes the sin in question is one that is a matter of interpretation of the Scriptures.

I am actually quite comfortable with where I stand on this, but Joe_Cool brought up a point I thought I should think about…the point about whether or not NOT “judging” another person’s “sin” is condoning it.

Thank you for your input.

[lel]

As much as this sounds like a trite answer out of a pop Christian book, I have seriously come to wonder if for a Christian it’s not simply a matter of prayer. It really seems like the Bible is somewhat vague here, and maybe God intended it that way so we might rely upon Him.

While that begs the question of why the line is different for every Christian, I wonder if maybe God didn’t purposefully give us this question as a matter of making people have faith.

[Scotticher]

That is an interesting idea, lel. I really don’t know how to answer this, except to say that I think that since there are SO many different interpretations of the Scriptures, you might have an entirely valid point here.

More things to consider, and another thing to ponder. As if I needed more, but then my spiritual life is always a work in progress.

[Liberal]

Let the person whom God has consulted for advice and counsel on His judgments step forward and tell us what is the right way to judge.

[Stoid]

Another non-Christian speaketh, if I may.

It seems to me that first, ** Scotticher ** is exactly right in her interpretation, and second… why the question at all? When you fear that you may be “condoning” a behavior, Scotticher, what does that look like, exactly? You going up to a homosexual and telling them you what you think of their lifestyle? In what context does this become an issue? Or are you concerned only with your private, unexpressed thoughts and how God might be reading them?

[Scotticher]

Actually, Stoid, I wasn’t referring to homosexuality, since I am not of the opinion that it is clear that it IS a sin.

I just wanted to make that clear. I will try to get back to you on the rest of this…I just got some really bad news and I am too distraught to think straight.

[mrcrow]

its easy to make a judgement on a persons sin but not on the person or else you condemn them to be together as one.
take the sin away and you have a person set free
hate the sin love the sinner

[Scott_Dickerson]

Sincerely sorry to hear you received bad news, Scotticher.

On the question of the Pharisees/adulteress episode…Don’t some translations render Jesus comment as (something like): “Let those of you who have not lain with this woman cast the first stone.” --?

Or is that considered a mistranslation?

[davidw]

Say I read the Bible, and I think it says homosexuality is a sin. Later, someone asks me my opinion about homosexuality. What should my response be? How can I say it is a sin without that sounding like a condemnation?

[Polycarp]

Well, David, you’d need to pick up the fact that there are two definitions for the word:

ho·mo·sex·u·al·i·ty ( P ) Pronunciation Key (hm-sksh-l-t, -m-) n.

1. Sexual orientation to persons of the same sex.
2. Sexual activity with another of the same sex.

Leviticus and Paul appear to condemn definition 2. Most gay men and women mean definition 1 in claiming to be homosexual. Depending on how you read Romans 1, it may or may not be applicable to definition 1.

I’d start by saying that to be a sin, it must be possible to refrain from indulging in it. From what gay people have had to say about definition 1 and what ex-gay programs have had to say, it appears that there’s some real problems answering the question whether one can choose whether to indulge in definition-1 homosexuality. There’s an obvious choice available with regard to definition 2. Making clear that you do see and understand the difference will keep them from misunderstanding you as condemning them for something over which they feel they have no choice.

Scott Dickerson, insofar as I know there’s no such translation, but a lot of people have speculated that the “sin” of which the accusers were guilty was precisely that. But the words of the Bible don’t say so, or even provide more than a hint towards concluding so.

Scotticher has raised a tough subject here, and I commend her for doing so. Strangely, Joe Cool and I agree in principle on the issue of where and when a Christian should judge, though we find ourselves often in disagreement about how to apply that judgment.

I think there’s a bunch more to say on this, but I’d like to hold off (particularly in view of Scotti’s loss – and the board’s).