You should apologize for all of the errors you posted in this thread, which I have already pointed out. I was pretty clear about that in my previous message. What part didn’t you understand?
yosemitebabe -
How can people know what you believe unless you tell them? I think I’m re-stating what someone else is pointing out, but bear with me -
Someone cannot question your beliefs unless you declare them. Example: I believe it to be a moral imperative to burn Barney the Dinosaur in effigy. This bothers some people that I believe this. But if I don’t tell them, they can’t know.
Sometimes, it’s just better not to mention things. Frankly, faith is such a loaded subject that I try to avoid it with darn near everyone. And I mean faith in anything!! I find that people who are truly secure in their views on (insert issue here) are unlikely to give you a hard time. And some just have to be right about everything…
“Errors”,Dave? Everything I’ve said is my opinion,for which I don’t apologize,now or ever.
Yeah,I know your little slogan.In this case,“ignorance” is a code word for the belief in something other than Charles Darwin’s theories.
You and hardcore know as well as I do that evolution is not,repeat not,established fact.It’s a theory-hence the term “theory of evolution”.It is in fact a belief system (AKA a religion),that teaches that human beings are just another animal,and that this whole vast universe is a random accident.It has also given us such scientific triumphs as Piltdown man and Nebraska man.
You and hardcore,much like yosemitebabe and myself,have accepted a belief system based on certain doctrines.None of us were there when the universe began,so we accept certain things on faith.Your faith is in Darwin,who had problems accepting his own theory.He represents the prophet/messiah figure in your faith.Your “scripture” is a book called “The Origin of Species”.(Among others,of course).In any discussion of your faith,you must invariably quote Darwin’s teachings.If you don’t see the similarities to Christianity here,I don’t know what else to say.Ultimately,we’re all staking our eternal destinies on the truth of our belief systems.You’d better be very sure Darwin is right.But of course,he is wrong.And so are you.
You made some comments about evolutionists being devout followers of Christ.Since you were pretty vague on specifics,I’ll assume you were talking about Deism.Interesting theory,but it goes completely against the Bible.My previous comments about the New Testament calling Adam the first man simply meant that it confirms the Book of Genesis. Adam was the “first” man,and he was created whole,directly by God.God didn’t create the universe,then kick back and let humans evolve whenever and however.
As far as your assertion that I need to study up on botany,etc…man,that’s a heavy caseload…been kinda busy lately…haven’t had time to get degrees in all those fields…but I did read some nifty “World Book Encyclopedia” articles!Rather than convincing me to abandon my faith,they actually strengthened it,when I thought about the mighty God that created it all.
Now,to address yosemitebabe’s original question,yet again(and I think this thread’s getting way off course)to wit:why do some people have a problem with her just breathing oxygen and believing in creation? In my humble opinion,“hardcore”(heh,heh)Darwinians have a vendetta against a personal God to whom they may be accountable.If there’s no personal God,obviously the origin of the universe and of human beings was an impersonal,random process.Darwin’s theory is exactly what they want to hear,since it validates their beliefs.This is why he’s become such a messianic figure to them.They’ll have us believe there’s not the slightest doubt or flaw in his theory.Dave’s little quote at the bottom of his post about the “beauty” of evolution shows what high regard they have for it.They don’t admit to having any sin or needing a Savior,so Christianity’s teachings to the contrary naturally offend them.Some of the more argumentative types among them feel a need to slam our beliefs and proselytize for theirs.The Bible has a wonderful term for these people-“hardhearted”.These are my honest opinions-she can accept,reject,forget,or ignore them.If I’ve given her something to at least consider,my work here is done.
That said,on the other hand,smilingjaw’s letter was excellent.Maybe they’re just jerks who don’t like to be wrong.
A few asides to hardcore:I’m shocked (and somewhat heartened) to learn that Christianity has invaded the hardcore family.I didn’t mean "poor"in an economic sense,by the way-just a figure of speech.Don’t lecture me on sarcasm until you’re ready to stop it yourself.
I must say,I’m a little disappointed.When you said you fight so hard to stamp out ignorance,I had visions of you leading marches in the streets.Then I learn that your efforts consist of- 1)reading books,2)talking to your kid,and 3)sending posts to this website.Admirable in their way,but a little less than spectacular.
Your statement about creationism "negatively affecting"all future scientists,was without doubt the most asinine I’ve ever read.Your agenda comes through loud and clear.
So,I can have a class on “creation myths”? Great!Thanks a lot!Only we’ll call it “creation theories”-“myths” is such a biased word.You can call yours “evolution theories”,in which you can present the many flaws and holes in evolution.Truth will out.By the way,who died and left you in charge of American education?
My comments on Christ making some people uncomfortable left no impression on you? I doubt it,or you wouldn’t have pointed it out.One of your comments was right on the money,though-He makes me very comfortable.
Sorry you flunked the test on Caesar.
Sure,a few people influenced Darwin.So what?
Whose name springs to mind when evolution is mentioned? Who has had the most influence in the field? In that respect,at least,he did get the ball rolling,didn’t he?Actually,yes.
We could argue our beliefs back and forth till we’re both blue in the face and infirm with Carpal Tunnel Syndrome,but I think (hope)I made my point to yosemitebabe,which is what this thread was all about,wasn’t it?
Have a good day.
I have read only about 10 posts in this thread but wanted to address this misconception:
You may wish to read the “Evolution is a Fact and a Theory FAQ”, at http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html - the point is that the details of how evolution happens are a theory. That evolution happens in some way, is a fact. If I may quote from it (in turn quoting various other sources):
and:
So the thing to understand here is that science knows that evolution occurs to about the same certainty as it knows the earth orbits the sun - i.e, there is essentially no longer any reasonable doubt. But it doesn’t know all the details of how it happens, which is where various theories enter the picture.
HTH. Now back to the thread already in progress…
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Well, when your opinions are wrong, you’re entitled to them. But don’t be surprised when people point them out to you. Like I am about to…
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BZZT! WRONG ANSWER!!
A “Scientific Theory” is NOT liek the common version of the word. A SCIENTIFIC THEORY is an idea which has evidence that shows it to not be false. This particular SCIENTIFIC THEORY has a MOUNTAIN of evidence behind it.
If you doubt a SCIENTIFIC THEORY is indeed a “fact,” please go to a large building and jump off. If you don’t go splat (and wind currents don’t save your ass), you just provided some evidence that the Theory of Gravity is not correct.
SO please, have at it! After all, it’s just a theory…
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BZZT!! WRONG ANSWER!!
One does not have evidence for religion. There is, however, a MOUNTAIN of evidence that supports this.
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BZZT!! WRONG ANSWER!!
The Theory of Evolution says that we evolved. We aare, in fact, “just another animal,” but one which is fortunate enough to have developed a lot of characteristics that set us apart from other animals.
You think we’re so much better than animals? Well, why don’t you, when you’re jumping off that bulding while disproving gravity, fly to the next building over. Birds can do that!
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BZZT! WRONG ANSWER!!
The Theory of Evolution says NOTHING that there is NOT a creator. Onlyt that one doesn’t HAVE to be there to make it all work. And it does, thanks. But many people can and do believe that science shows us HOW, but theology showws us WHY.
Quit mixing apples and oranges, okay?
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BZZT! WRONG ANSWER!!
Unless, of course, you would like to get into the many legitimate HOAXES and LIES that Creation Scientists have been called out doing.
Unlike those, REAL SCIENTISTS showed these as mistakes. And no reputable scientist would say they are still factual, whereas Creation Scientists still spread the same LIES that have been debunked OVER and OVER AGAIN!
Also, even with those errors, you still have yet to be able to explain the MOUNTAIN OF EVIDENCE which is there.
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BZZT!! WRONG ANSWER!!
As mentioned earlier, it’s not a belief system. We have evidence. Where’s yours?
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BZZT!! WRONG ANSWER!
Faith does not require evidence. Science does. You don’t have evidence. Science does. Hence, YOU use your faith, but SCIENCE DOESN’T HAVE TO!
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BZZT!! WRONG ANSWER!!
He had NO problems with his own ideas, and in fact, it was a great stepping stone for what we do know. He was not 100% dead on with everything, but that doesn’t mean he was WRONG, just that science did what it’s supposed to do - search fopr more evidence.
Oh, and the mountain of evidence is still there, by the way. All the faith in the world that it’s not won’t make it go away.
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BZZT!! WRONG ANSWER!!
Many more developments have come since Darwin, and he himself had people before him who influenced his thinking.
Also, there is no “worship” here. Unlesss you worship the teachers who taught you how to read and do math back in elementary school. Because that’s all he was - a teacher.
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BZZT!! WRONG ANSWER!
I have seem MANY threads about evolution, our origins and abiogenesis which never once brought the venerable doctor up.
For example, even if we threw out the evidence in his fields, there is still a mountain of evidence from many other scientific disciplines which show we have an ancient universe, abiogenesis happened and we evolved.
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Science - Moutain of evidence.
Christianity (if you’re a literalist fool) - some passages in a book.
Oh yeah… I can see the simularities! :rolleyes:
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BZZT! WRONG ANSWER!!
Many people - even here - can be perfectly good religious Christians and feel that Genesis is a parable.
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BZZT!! WRONG ANSWER!!
Learn about your own goddammed religion, buddy! As I said, MANY, if not MOST folks who believe in what the Bible says have no problem reconciling their faith and the Bible. Period.
Just because you are too dense to manage this feat does not mean that everyone else is.
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BZZT!! WRONG ANSWER!!
http://www.bcbsr.com/survey/genint.html
That page - on a Christian site - shows that it’s a perfectly ACCEPTABLE way to look at the Bible.
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And your evidence for this would be…?
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BZZT!! WRONG ANSWER!!
An encyclopaedia is not a science textbook. Neither is the Bible.
[quote]
**Rather than convincing me to abandon my faith,they actually strengthe
Brian White is a great example of how “creation scientists” obtained their bad name …
Gee, so many errors in so few characters! In science “theory” is a technical term that does not carry the “tentative and uproven” connotation that “theory” does in common speech. The appropopriate term for a tentative, unproven theory is “hypothesis”. The theory is, in fact, neither a belief system nor a religion.
The similarities are only in the straw man that you have set up, obviously knowing nothing of the science of evolution.
Gee, I thought David was pretty specific:
“It is quite possible to believe in Jesus Christ and still accept evolution. There are a number of folks here who fall into this category. While you might like to make things so black and white by claiming evolutionists are godless anti-religionists who shudder at the thought of Christ, the facts show that you are just plain wrong.”
To put it even more simply, there are many christians and religious believers who accept evolution.
[quote]
In my humble 0pinion,“hardcore”(heh,heh)Darwinians have a vendetta against a personal God to whom they may be accountable.[\quote]
You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. Do you have any evidence to support that opinion, or did you just make it up to satisfy your prejudices? BTW, I wouldn’t count creationist writings alone to be evidence; I’d look for quotes from or analyses of evolutionist writings.
Any messianic nature of Darwin is in your head.
Ah, a statement of an evolutionist claim. From where does this claim come? Or did you make it up? Do you have evidence that evolutionists indeed do that?
Again, “theory” is a technical term in science. However, no creation science has yet met the commonly accepted tests of “theory-hood”. Until the “creation scientists” start doing science, they’re propagating myths or attempting to teach religion in the guise of science.
Please note that I do not intend to disparage your beliefs. I wouldn’t mind convincing you to change your mind about evolution, but I don’t have much hope of that. I’m just pointing out the places where your statements of “fact” are incorrect.
This is indeed off-topic, and I suggest that you read the other threads such as
Evidence for Creationism - 3D, url=http://boards.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/001772.html]Are Creationists Dishonest?]/url], Evolution, Creationism Questions, Creationists - Strut your Stuff,
[Evolution vs. Creation, and A Non-Inflammatory Evolution Question. Then maybe you should sart a new thread …
jrf
Several folks have already addressed Brian White’s post, but I’m going to say a few things as well. Who knows, maybe by repeating it something will get through to him…
Brian said:
Yes, errors.
Specifically, your claim:
I responded to this and said: “Have you read this thread – or others about this subject here? Because there are quite a few people on this message board who will probably be quite offended at your statements. You see, it is quite possible to believe that God created the universe without being a ‘creationist.’ It is quite possible to believe in Jesus Christ and still accept evolution. There are a number of folks here who fall into this category. While you might like to make things so black and white by claiming evolutionists are godless anti-religionists who shudder at the thought of Christ, the facts show that you are just plain wrong.”
You didn’t address this or admit your error (until finally now – see below – and you still aren’t addressing the actual point because you don’t seem to get it). This is not simply an issue of belief – or even an issue of creation vs. evolution – but an issue of fact. So why not simply admit you were wrong?
I also pointed out that you were confusing science with religion when you said:
Of course, with your latest post, you continue to show that you don’t know the difference.
Now, on to the rest of your message (or at least parts of it – as I said, some have already been addressed sufficiently).
No, in this case, “ignorance” means “ignorance.” Frankly, you’ve shown an awful lot of it in just this one post (not even counting your previous posts).
My goodness, if only you had the foggiest idea how silly this all looks to people who know what they’re talking about. But I guess you wouldn’t, would you? As has already been mentioned, you obviously don’t understand what a theory is. You further don’t understand the difference between science and belief, between evidence and faith. It all leads me to wonder if there is any part of this discussion that you do understand.
Wrong. We accept evidence and the scientific method. This is exactly the opposite of the faith-based belief system you subscribe to.
I wonder how many years of creationist propaganda you’ve been exposed to. You seem to be hitting all of the normal points that people who don’t know what they’re talking about spout.
Do yourself a favor and don’t say anything else – at least until you go read a book or two, or maybe take a basic high school science class.
Well, that sure convinced me! Brian White, who doesn’t understand a lick of science, says I’m wrong. Hoo-boy, I’d better go throw out all my science books and buy me a Bible. While I’m at it, I’d better go get that lobotomy…
I wasn’t vague at all – and I’ve quoted it again above. I wasn’t talking about Deism – I was talking about Christians. What part of this didn’t you understand?
It’s not a “theory” – it’s a fact. There are real live Christians here who accept evolution. Maybe you “think” it goes against the Bible, but you know what, I wouldn’t trust you to tell me what color the sky is.
Oh, well, if you say so. Who am I to argue, just because we have mountains of evidence and all that. Obviously, that was all planted by Satan, right?
Nobody’s asking you to get degrees – just a clue! What have you been busy doing, re-studying your Bible?
That’s been answered already. Frankly, people like you are the reason people like her are sometimes bothered by folks who are against creationist nonsense (yeah, I know, I’m being redundant).
And as you’ve shown so many times in this thread, you’re wrong. If people don’t believe in God, there is nobody to have a “vendetta” against. And, as I’ve mentioned (and you don’t want to accept), there are many Christians who accept evolution. You know, like the pope (oh, wait, he’s probably not a “real Christian,” right?).
You’re right – it is held in high regard. Know why? Not because of some bizzarre anti-God position as you’d like to believe, but because it is a solid scientific theory with mountains of evidence to back it up.
[quote]
They don’t admit to having any sin or needing a Savior,
Brian White, I’ll bet yosemitebabe cringes when you post such sanctimonious drivel. It makes me fear for the quality of the educational system in America.
Who have an exceptional talent for making statements that are completely at odds with reality. Evolution is an established fact. So much so that you will not see any scientific papers entitled “New Evidence for Evolution”. It simply is well accepted by the scientific community and is no longer considered an issue. But since you obviously don’t believe me or any of the others in this thread, perhaps you will accept the unanimous opinion of every Nobel Prize winner living in the United States in 1986:
– Amicus Curiae Brief of 72 Nobel Laureates, 17 State Academies of Science, and 7 other scientific organizations, to the U.S. Supreme Court
Setting aside the issue of faith, what specifically about his theory do you imagine Darwin having trouble accepting? Do you even have any idea what you are talking about?
I’m after something far more important than any imaginary “eternal destinies” – my descendants’ right to learn science free from your religious dogma. I want my children to be taught the most current ideas about the way things actually work, not that some invisible, inscrutable entity created everything but leaves no evidence. Let my children learn science in school. You can indoctrinate your progeny however you wish at home. I’ll wager that my offspring will be able to find a job and contribute something to the world.
No doubt this is the full extent of your education.
As David noted earlier, It defies logic to have a vendetta against something you don’t believe exists. I can no more have a vendetta against God than you can against Zeus, Thor, the Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus.
Christianity doesn’t offend me. Willfully ignorant people you wish to teach fairy tales in a science class offend me.
You would be well advised to keep any speculation about my family’s ideology to yourself. You are treading dangerously close to Pit-level discourse.
I am quite certain that your opinions about the quality of my efforts mean less to me than a steaming hot pile of pony loaf. At least the latter could be used as fertilizer.
Since you have read almost nothing and understand even less, this is to be expected. If scientists ever start accepting concepts without requiring evidence, we will have undoubtedly taken one giant leap backwards.
We are all in charge of education. If we relax, the superstitious and pseudo-religious irrationalists will try to sneak in the back door, as shown by recent occurrences in Kansas and Oklahoma.
Why is it that evolution scares you so? Do you fear all of science? Does the fact that the earth is spherical and revolves around the sun disturb you? These facts, and many others, conflict with a literal reading of the Bible, yet I doubt you rail against them as the church once did. But at least I was right about one thing.
There’s always a new one to kick around.