Just believing - got a problem with that?

Great Debates
1

Oh dear, not another Creation vs. Evolution debate thread, right? Not specifically.

I know, GD has too many Creation/Evolution threads already. And we had a thread a while back about “Why do you care?” (in regards to religious debate as a whole.) But I want to know specifically why people get their knickers in a bunch arguing about Creation/Evolution. I understand that some Creationists can get pretty strident about pushing their agenda, in schools, etc. And Creationists have their own concerns about the Evolution “theory”. In other words, the political side to it. I understand that part, and it is being discussed, (ad nauseum) currently on other threads, I am sure. So, to be clear, I am not asking about why people care about the political issues of this topic. That is self-evident to me.

I also understand that people can enjoy discussing this issue, and are interested in finding out why the “other side” believes what they do. And as long as each side is civil and respectful, it’s not a big deal - just a civilized discussion. Sounds fine.

I just want to know why people care when the political aspect is not present. I mean, I have witnessed the attitude “Oh no, a Creationist/Evolutionist” and the political issue is not present, at least not directly. There is no evidence that the person being discussed (with such disgust!) is politically active at all. They just believe in Creation or Evolution. And yet such an extreme reaction to the mere fact that they believe (or don’t believe.) I don’t get it.

For instance, I am a Creationist. I don’t believe in Evolution. But, you won’t see me here on GD trying to convince everyone that Creation is right, and that Evolution is wrong. I am pretty low-key. Personally, and politically. And yet, on occasion, I have encountered someone who just cared that I believed, and it apparently bugged them. That I believed - not what I was doing (politically) about it, just that I was breathing oxygen and believing in Creation. And I don’t get that. Why give a damn? Do you give a damn? (I hope not!) And if you do (on either side to this issue) why?

(I know, I seem to start a lot of “Why Care” threads - I did one on Macs/PCs a while ago.)

2

Not me, kiddo. :slight_smile: I don’t have the slightest problem with you believing whatever you do. I may not understand why, but that’s not what you asked.
Peace,
mangeorge

I only know two things;
I know what I need to know
And
I know what I want to know
Mangeorge, 2000

3

The problem is that even if one is not politically active, it still behooves one to be in shape, as it were, in debating the subject because it will come up in the damndest of places. You’ll be confronted with a young cousin who was told that there is a legitimate alternate scientific theory to evolution (which there isn’t), and will probably have heard not only the arguments you already know how to debunk, but new ones that while no less specious represent new tactics used by creationists.

For example, the cop-out about micro-evolution' vs. macro-evolution’ as a way of explaining away the fact that some evolution can be observed in a population in a short period. This arose, it seems to me, quite suddenly, and it spread through the sunday schools.

4

Another reason might be that a person favouring the teaching of evolution in school will think “Oh no! yosemitebabe is the kind of person that will think creationism should be taught in science class! I’d better prove to her that it’s wrong.” What you believe can affect other people.

5

Hey, Blind faith worked just fine for:
Jim Jones,

David Koresh,

The Halley-Bop comet gang

The Moonies, etcetera

…so if it works for you too… Great!!

Just remember that that particular brand of ignorance usually carries a pretty heavy price tag.

6

Exactly.

I’m the one who moaned “Not another Creationist.” (I don’t mind if my name is mentioned as long as my statements are accurately repeated.) Mostly, though, it’s because the person in question was Freedom, and he’s been bugging me lately.

When all else fails, ask Cecil.

7

Thanks guys, but I’m not really talking about what I might do - it’s what I am doing politically - nothing. Nada. Nuthin’. In fact, I do not want to force Creation to be taught it schools. I was taught Evolution in schools, and it didn’t force me to believe in it. I see no reason why other Christian/Creationist kids can’t survive school like I did, with their Creationists beliefs intact. I think my point is, until you ask me (or any other random Creationist), you really don’t know what my position is on these things, do you?

And when I have told some Evolutionists this, and they still want to “convince” me that I am wrong. Also - why do you want to “convince” me of anything? Why care?

And like I mentioned before, debating it for informational purposes is one thing - but to care so much what someone else believes is weird to me. When the person believing is not politically active…why care? Why care?

8

See, for some people, it’s like this: If someone were to tell you, offhandedly, in conversation, that they didn’t believe the sky was blue, would your first reaction be “Oh, O.K.” or would you say something like, “What?? Can’t you see?”

You know, not for nothing, I’m just saying . . . Then, of course, with this site specifically, there’s the whole “fighting ignorance” angle . . .

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.

9

To some of us, the political aspect is always present. Or at least almost always.

I can’t tell you how many debates I’ve been in where people start with, “What do you care what I believe” and soon end up at, “We should teach both in school, they’re both theories!” Not quite always, but often enough that I’ve gotten used to it.

Oh, no! A creationist! :wink:

Well, frankly, it bugs me. That doesn’t mean I’m going to try to do anything about it, but it does. Why? Because it always bugs me to see people who are, shall we say, misinformed. (Yeah, yeah, I know, you don’t see it that way.) I can’t help it.

That said, and I know it’s a cliche, but some of my best friends are young earth creationists. I go to their house once a week. I would trust them to watch my children (and have done so on occasion). The simple fact is that I don’t bring it up. Meanwhile, the husband has brought up his views on creationism several times. I’ve just laughed at one of his anecdotes and changed the subject. (Around here, I’d have plowed into the claims, showing how ridiculous they are.)

I guess it comes down to this: If somebody’s going to come to the Great Debates section on The Straight Dope Message Board and proclaim that they are a creationist, I figure they expect to be debated. I will oblige them.

10

Well, not if I am not discussing the concepts of Evolution or Creation specifically. I am asking why someone would care that I believe in something - just sitting in my home, breathing oxygen, and merely believing. This is not the same as wanting to debate the actual issue. Another way of asking my question would be “Why are you pestering me about something that I believe, but am not making any of your business?”

And, even though many of you have encountered many Evolutionists who cannot contain themselves, and feel the need to debate the issue, I don’t think I’m one of them. Try to find any heartfelt Creationist arguements authored by me here on GD. You won’t find them. I’m not saying I haven’t argued a bit about religion here on GD, but discussing doctorine at any length is not my M.O.

Also, I find this “fighting ignorance” thing a little tiring. I am not saying that you have no right to feel that way, but I should think the reason to “fight ignorance” is that you feel that the specific ignorance is harmful to society. So when you encounter someone whose only transgression is to believe in something you think is “ignorant”, and breathe oxygen, why get your knickers in such a bunch over it? Unless they are doing something about it, how is it your business? And, who gets to decide what is “ignorant”? You will find just as many Creationists and Christians who will decide that your beliefs are “ignorant” - do you appreciate them pestering you, even if you are taking pains to mind your own business?

11

Well, maybe it’s like this: if someone cuts you off in traffic, you curse them and throw up a certain finger. Why? Because they’re wrong and you’re right. Human nature. I mean, if I met a guy who believed the sky was orange, well, he’s wrong. Not just because I believe he’s wrong, but because there’s an assload of science that agrees with me (BTW, an assload is defined as 1 mol). Just as Christians get angry if you defy their bible, I get angry if you defy my textbook. I don’t have children, but if I did, I’d protest their being taught that the sky was orange, just as I would their being taught creationism. That crap belongs in religious schools.

A hush fell over the courtroom, killing six.

12

I’m really not as pushy and intellectually rigid as that last post makes me seem. When I said I, what I meant was “maybe someone else”. True, I disbelieve creationism, but I won’t argue it with strangers on the street. The sky color thing, however, is fair game.

A hush fell over the courtroom, killing six.

13

I feel the need to repeat myself:

I am not discussing the political aspects of this issue. Having a problem with a Creationist who is trying to force your kids to be taught Creation is certainly worthy of some knickers-bunching. But why care that someone else believes in soemthing that you find wacky, as long as they are minding their own business?

Once again, I am NOT interested in discussing the political aspects to this. It’s in the OP. A politically active Creationist I am not. I just believe. I am taking pains to not make it your business. So why care?

14

Because of what I said, blind faith is dangerous. The rest of us tend to have to pick up the mess.

15

Sorry for misunderstanding the topic.

Okay, believe what you like, but I reserve the right to shake my head and smile slightly. :stuck_out_tongue:

No offense, of course.

A hush fell over the courtroom, killing six.

16

David, in re:

Things have been kind of rough here today, and I think we could all use a good laugh. Do you suppose you could share that anecdote?

Yosemitebabe, even people who are not “politically active,” as you put it, vote. And some of them vote in school board elections. It can be considered a compliment to be extended the courtesy of an assumption that one is responsible enough to vote. And for a voter who really doesn’t want Creationism to be taught in schools, it can be useful to be reminded why the Christian Right slate needs to be defeated in the election.

17

kaylasdad99 brings up a good point. Using my previous analogy of the sky color, I wouldn’t want a bunch of people getting together and deciding that congress should enact a law saying that the sky was now officially orange. I absolutely refuse to outlaw anyone’s opinions, but I will do whatever I can to convert as many people as possible, such that such a crazy opinion (in my mind) falls into disuse.

18

I have stated earlier, I am not against Evolution being taught in the schools, and I figure that if I got through being taught Evolution in school with my religious beliefs intact, so can others. So, I am not for putting creation in schools, and would not vote for it. But, I still believe. I can assure you that many laid-back Christians like myself would not care to “force” schools to teach Creation. So - given that, why do you care what I privately believe?

And also, Scylla - please offer me some evidence to support why I, yosemitebabe, am going to hurt you (or society) with my beliefs, since I am taking pains to keep it my own business. I am pretty laid-back, as you probably can tell. And you really don’t know much about me - not enough to decide that I am going to join some cult and bring down the world. So - why do you care?

19

I, too, am a Creationist (at least David B informed me of same) and have enjoyed the evolution/creation debate very much. Not only did it get me thinking about my own conclusions, but it gave me an insight into how science works. It seems, however, that the discussion was limited only to the chain of events beginning with the primordial ooze that led to humans. I couldn’t get past the question ‘where did the ooze come from?’

The forum forced me to look at and think about stuff like the 2nd law, abiogenisis and stuff I’d never considered before. In fact, I spent 50 bucks for 3 books “The Mind of God” by Paul Davies, a mathematician, “Does God Exist?”, a debate between a theist and an atheist, and of course, “Darwin on Trial” by Phillip E. Johnson, David’s favorite author. :slight_smile:

The evolutionists do seem, by and large, to be fairly objective in their analysis of findings and evidence for their conclusion. I wonder, though, whether some, not all, are driven by an ‘anti-theism’ philosophy.

As a Believer, I know that this trend will get worse. And, please, atheists, don’t ask me to explain the scripture, I only said I believe it, not that I understand it.

20

Yosemite:

A fair question.

I too, believe in a higher power. I do so beyond science, and I feel without contradiction.

Young earth creationism on the other hand runs counter to a very strong proponderance of evidence. Enough evidence to counter the belief in the mind of a reasonable person.

While as you fairly state, I know nothing about you, the implication is that you are not reasonable.

While you state:

" I am taking pains to keep it my own
business."

The fact that you are posting your belief publicly in an open forum for discussion, is in direct contradiction to that statement. This furthers the unreasonable hypothesis that I might form as a reader who “knows nothing of you.”

(You DO seem like a nice-laid back person, which is why I’m responding this way. I don’t really think you are all that unreasonable, just trying to make a point. I hope you take it the way it’s meant :slight_smile: )

I would hope you agree that such tragedies as I mentioned earlier are a clear warning to those that go to far in blind acceptance. There are many many examples of such collisions with reality among the overly zealous faithful. I hope you would agree, and not recquire a listing.

I see something like Jonestown, where loving mothers fed their children Cyanide beleiving it would speed them to their heavenly reward, and I wish to God that perhaps their faith wasn’t so strong, that they had questioned, that they had showed some fucking skepticism and asked “Why should I believe this?”

I wish they had reasoned. Maybe they wouldn’t have been there.

Circular thinking is habit-forming. It’s easier not to have to responsibly weigh the evidence and come up with the reasonable (if unpopular and less appealing) truth.

Contrary to current PC thought, not all beliefs are equally valid.

How many unreasonable beliefs do you have to hold before you drink the Kool-Aid?

I don’t know. Do you?