Yosemite:
Hey, look who just showed up to take your side.
If that doesn’t scare you, I don’t know what will.
Need I say more?
Scylla: Thanks for taking the time to offer such a comprehensive response. However, when you said:
I am not actually trying to debate Creationism/Evolution. It is actually an example of the bigger picture - but the Creation/Evolution thing is a good example, and one that comes up repeatedly. In other words: (to quote a previous post of mine):
Actually, a variation on this theme has been brought up before by me - once I asked on SDMB why people “cared” what kind of computer someone else used - PC or Mac. Another time I started a thread that asked (in essense) why anyone would get upset because I listened to Classical Music. (I have gotten a lot of grief over that in my life too.) This is my Big Picture here.
Sure, this thread is also about Creationism/Evolutionsim, but only as a side issue. I really am trying to figure out why people care so much about something that I believe in, (or use, or listen to, or not eat) when it is not their business.
You said:
Good point. And, not that I want to get into specifics, but I have had to change church denominations/congregations twice because the pastors/leaders in charge started to tell us some BS that did not jive with what I believed was right. I questioned it, I didn’t like the answers I got, I left. I learned that from my Dad, who was a big church “rabble rouser”, and the thorn in the side of many a church “big shot”. He was always writing letters, defying authority, asking them hard questions. Blindly following taking someone else’s word for something that sounds “wrong” to me is not my M.O. either. It wasn’t how I was raised. That sort of thinking scares me just as much as it scares you.
Well, good, for you, yosemitebabe; I had come to believe in your intellectual honesty quite some time ago, so I can vouch for your statement that you are not the type to be a blind follower.
Still, how WOULD you vote for school board members when the ballot had a bunch who were itching to get their switches and stick “creation science” into the curriculum? Please note that I am interested in who you would choose to represent you on the school board, not how you would vote in a spcific referendum on whether to alter the curriculum in such a way.
kaylasdad99, thanks for the immense compliment!
To answer your question - the chances of me knowing who was running for school board are nil. I vote for the Big Issues (President, etc.) but I have no clue about this local stuff. But - if I knew that a school board candidate was itching to push Creationism in the public schools, I would not be comfortable with that. I feel that it would be like shoving something down kid’s throats, that their parents may or may not want them to be taught. I don’t like that.
On the other hand (and I don’t know if this has ever happened) I also wouldn’t be comfortable with a school pushing Evolution on kids like they have to believe it. Taught it, yes, but they get to make up their own mind on whether they believe it (like I did.) I have no idea if any schools would be this pushy about Evolution, I know mine wasn’t. This is a touchy issue on both sides, I wouldn’t like kids being browbeaten on either side of it.
I’ve never seen anyone post serious deprecation of just believing. Personally, I find such anti-rational beliefs slighly repellent, but I’ve survived worse.
The Creationist/Evolution debate is important because Creation “Scientists” are attacking the fundamental nature of rational inquiry. By attempting to use the forms (but not the content) of Science, by a relentless war of propaganda against true Science, they are attempting to destroy rational thought altogether.
They think, that the power of the priests and clergy to control their flock with superstition and lies is challenged by the precepts of Science. And they are correct.
Science is not the enemy of honest spirtuality and belief. Science does not and cannot answer a lot of questions, the most basic being: Why is there something rather than nothing? How can I find meaning and purpose in my life?
But Science is the enemy of superstition, fear and irrationality. It is dedicated to empowering people with knowlege: The last thing that the Jerry Falwells, Jim Bakkers, and Pat Robertsons of this world want. Then they cannot control the people and prey on their irrational fears to their worldly gain.
“Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away”. - Phillip K. Dick
This is all very interesting, SingleDad, but I don’t think it addresses the OP. I understand the need to discuss Evolution/Creation when there are political issues going on. That’s what all the other plethora of threads on Creation/Evolution on GD are about. This thread is not about that.
To repeat myself (again) my question is:
How is it your business, and why do you care?
What evidence do you have illustrating that people care when it is not their business?
Personal experience - I’ve had some annoying run-ins in my day. Oh, I’m not saying that every Evolutionist cares. They don’t, thank God. But yes, I have been argued with, “browbeaten” by Evolutionists, even after I told them that I was not politically active. Even after I asked them why they care. And, if you read some of the posts here carefully, they will admit that my belief bothers them, or allude to that.
Well, YB, I’m making the point that I think you might be mistaken: In my admittedly limited experience, people don’t care here what you believe. As long as you stay rational in what you say, everything’s groovy.
Where I’ve seen people care is when the political does get involved, and then they’ll go back and examine the irrational belief system that underlies the political attack on Science.
Ah, the joys of simulposting. 
Why do people in the real world care? Some are busybodies, some are arrogant, some believe that irrationality should be confronted, most people are just stupid.
SingleDad - sure, you’re right - many people don’t care. Actually, that’s is what I would expect, so that is why I find it so amazing that sometimes people do care. But I’m telling you, I’ve had some irritating run-ins on message boards by Evolutionists who were disturbed because I had “wrong thinking”. My thinking disturbed them. And, while I find many of the members here on Straight Dope more reasonable, there will still be that person that acts all bent out of shape because they cannot let go of the idea that my thoughts are damaging. I suspect that they cannot believe that I am not going to somehow be politically active, even when I insist that I am not. I don’t know. I don’t know why people would give me grief because I use a Mac, why I listen to Classical Music, or because I’m a vegetarian, but I’ve gotten crap about that on occasion too.
(In case anyone’s wondering why I jump on these posts like a duck on a June bug, I’m up late babysitting a kiln firing! Just killing time…)
Ack! Simulposts indeed! Well, you gave an answer to the OP, SingleDad, thanks!
Having not been privy to your personal experience, I cannot comment on the respect (or lack thereof) that someone paid to your beliefs. Keep in mind that evolutionists do not have a monopoly on “browbeating”, as christians are probably the worst offenders when trying to “convert” someone.
As previously alluded to, some of the problems you’ve encountered likely are the result of your stand on rationality. When you dismiss evolution summarily, you basically have rejected science and rational thought. No doubt you are aware that it is not necessary to establish a false dichotomy between religion and science. Quite possibly those who “browbeat” you over this issue find you to be rational in other areas, thereby contributing to their puzzlement and feeding their frenzy.
I personally have no problem with anyone’s privately held beliefs. But if the issue comes up in a discussion, I’ll politely show you the error of your ways. 
Oh, exactly. EXACTLY! So when an Evolutionist has encountered many obnoxious “browbeating” Creationists, why imitate that trait? Wouldn’t the “browbeating” Evolutionist know better, since they (presumably) have experienced “browbeating” by Christians, and didn’t like it? When they do their own browbeating, it makes them no better.
But it is none of their business. It is none of their business. I do not want them to try to “reason” with me, I find it tedious and arrogant. I do not try to “reason” with them, after all. My beliefs are heartfelt as well. I do not assume that they have not thought long and hard about why they believe what they do. I have decided to believe what I do, for my reasons. I have thought about it, I am not some mindless shell of a person, who just believes what I am told. I do not need to be “saved” from my “irrationality”, anymore than the random atheist feels they need to be “saved” by a Christian.
My beliefs are no one else’s business. Hmmm…does this sound familiar? I hear atheists say it all the time.
Evolutionists and Christians are not mutually exclusive groups. And neither group is better than the other. Inconsiderate types abound in almost any group.
It typically takes complicity from both parties to continue a debate. If you find a discussion tedious or an individual arrogant, simply remove yourself from the situation and stop participating. I do not follow this advice because I like to argue. However, it may be possible that you share some of the blame. I find it implausible that someone challenges you from out of the blue with “Have you accepted the Darwinian Theory of Natural Selection? Don’t you realize how vital this is to your future well-being?” I suspect you may have some role in your previous conflicts.
I guess for the same reason as Jehovah’s Witnesses care about spreading their beliefs. For the same reason that the fundamentalists in my office are so concerned about me going to hell because I believe differently than they do. For the same reason that PETA members shove pictures of mutilated animals into people’s faces. People have issues they feel passionately about. Also, people are very self-centered. We find it odd sometimes when others can have not only a differing opinion, but exactly the opposite one.
What? This didn’t answer your question? Nevermind!
I always try to do things in chronological order.
Indeed. And that is my point. These annoying Evolutionists who pester are “inconsiderate” - no more or no less than their Christian counterparts.
Oh, I had a “role” in it, alright. I said I didn’t believe in Evolution. I breathed oxygen and didn’t believe in Evolution. The topic would come up in discussion, or I spoke up during some discussion where people were trashing Creation, and said “Hey - I believe in Creation, but I am not making it any of your business! I am not a Creationist stereotype - just thought you’d like to know that there were some of us out there who are not trying to shove Creation down everyone’s throat.” That would usually be the essence of what I would contribute to the discussion. No mention of doctorine, no attempts to refute Evolution from me. But also no attempt to conceal my Creationist beliefs, when asked, or when the subject was brought up.
Is that enough of a reason to be “browbeaten”? I hardly think so. And no, I am not claiming that I am constantly hounded by Evolutionists. I am not. But it has happened, and I don’t get it.
YES!!! Exactly my point! They are all equally being enormous pains in the ass! Arrogant pains in the ass!
I could not agree more!
I always try to do things in chronological order.
Well, this thread increased several times over since my last post. Let’s see what I can reply to.
I had said: “I guess it comes down to this: If somebody’s going to come to the Great Debates section on The Straight Dope Message Board and proclaim that they are a creationist, I figure they expect to be debated.” Yosemitebabe replied:
I know, and I wasn’t referring to you in this case. I was referring to those who drop it in to other threads and then wonder why we ask them to back it up. (It’s happened a couple of times recently.) If somebody is going to mention that they are a creationist, or that evolution is “wrong” or something like that, in a Great Debates thread, they are going to get questions.
If it’s none of my business, how did I even know? (Again, not directed at you, but in general.)
The newsletter for the local skeptics group of which I am the chairman has a quote on its masthead: “It’s a very dangerous thing to believe in nonsense.” – James Randi.
In other words, I’m not sure it’s even possible to be a creationist and not have that affect your life and the lives of others at all.
Kaylasdad asked me to share the anecdote my creationist friend mentioned. Actually, there are several, most of which came from Kent Hovind videos (they watched the whole set – yippee). One dealt with Hovind’s daughter’s supposed trip to a museum, in which she (according to him) caught a scientist in circular logic, claiming that they know how old fossils are 'cus of the age of the geological strata they’re found in, and later saying they know how old the strata are because of the fossils in them. His daughter allegedly pointed that out and the scientist said, “Gee, you’re right.” My friend thought this was hysterical. I think it just goes right along with Hovind’s OTHER lies. For one, what is a scientist doing leading tours in a museum? For another, what kind of scientist can’t explain things better than that (since it’s wrong)? Etc. It sounds too much like the urban legend about the Christian student stumping the atheist/evolutionist professor in class.
Another story dealt with Hovind’s misunderstanding of the Big Bang, claiming that everything should be spinning the same direction because all matter was spinning in one direction PRIOR to the Big Bang. There are numerous problems with this one, but as luck would have it, I’m working on it as a Mailbag item right now, so you’ll have to wait a few weeks for that. 
(I do think it’s been discussed around here before somewhere, though I can’t recall where.)
Also, we were at a State Fair exhibit with a dinosaur portion, which stated that they were around “millions of years ago.” He made some crack about how nothing was around “millions of years ago.”
Etc.
Sorry if those aren’t terribly funny. I didn’t laugh 'cus they were funny; I laughed 'cus it was either that or argue with him.
Yosemitebabe said:
I think one problem here is that you seem to be asking us to explain something that we haven’t done. Yes, your belief does bother some of us. So what? If we don’t do anything about it, like browbeating you as you described others doing, what’s the difference whether it bothers us or not? It will always bother me to know that someone, somewhere, believes in something I consider utterly ridiculous. Maybe it’s a character flaw of mine. < shrug > But the point is that as long as I don’t come in here charging into battle against you for just saying you believe it, why do you care that I care?
In fact, this is often a side discussion that occurs in c/e debates, and has happened in the most recent one. ARG came in yelling about how creationism is a purely religious belief and we shouldn’t be trying to get scientific answers. Fine, I said. Then he said it again. Ok, dandy. Then he said it again. I finally got him to understand that I have no problem with somebody who just says, “I believe in creationism because that is my religious faith” if they aren’t trying to claim evolution is scientifically wrong, if they aren’t trying to claim there is science to back creationism, and if they aren’t trying to change the law or what the schools teach.