Just believing - got a problem with that?

Great Debates
41

I think it’s possible to allow someone to know some detail about your life, or beliefs, without opening these details of your life to a big honking debate. Someone may feel comfortable telling you that they are adopted, for instance, but not feel obligated to answer a lot of person questions about the details. I may want to tell you that I am vegetarian, but I may not be willing to explain all the reasons and ethics behind my vegetarianism, and answer all sorts of confrontational questions. (This happens to me a lot on the vegetarian issue.)

But who gets to decide what is “nonsense”? I might think eating meat is “nonsense”, seeing as I am a vegetarian. I find all sorts of things to be nonsensical - but it does not follow that I consider them dangerous also, or that I feel obligated to pester others about them.

Why? How? Please explain this. And, are not Creationists allowed to believe what they do under any circumstances without being considered problematic?

A good point there. But with all the heated debates I see being started on Creation/Evolution, I figured that the odds of finding someone who did “care” were pretty good.

If you don’t bother me about it, then that is all I can ask for!

It is a different mind set than I have. Sure, I “care” about many issues too, and the idea that some people believe in things I find odd or nutty does bother me. But, I have to say, not for long. I just don’t have it in me to care too terribly much, as long as I believe the nutty belief isn’t impacting me or anyone else. I don’t see any point in wasting my energy caring - as long as they don’t give me grief, I don’t usually give a damn. So - maybe that is partly why I started this thread. I don’t give a damn about much of this stuff, and can’t figure out why the rest of you do. And this goes for Creationists who are trying to convince Evolutionists as well. I find the whole struggle and debate mostly futile - a waste of bandwidth, since both sides seem equally bull-headed and not willing to yeild their viewpoints. I don’t see this forum as the place to win any converts, on either side. Maybe that’s my character flaw, that I don’t see what the point to all of this is.

OK, I’ll admit, I don’t see why you need or ought to care - it’s none of your business as long as I don’t make it your business. But if you are able to roll your eyes discreetly and not let me know how silly you think I am, not insult me or badger me, then no, I ultimately don’t care.

42

If you are seriously looking for a point to all of this, try this on for size. I did not always have the viewpoint that I have now. My upbringing was strictly Pentecostal, and as such, I was indoctrinated with Creationism and convinced that evolution was evil. Gradually, through exposure to knowledge and science, I came to see the world as I do now.

Had it not been for the efforts of teachers and others dedicated to fighting ignorance, I might have remained blissfully unaware of reality. So obviously I feel that it is possible for someone to “convert” to rationality.

43

As The Gay Guy, I want to put a little twist on this:

I read this and thought, “Yeah, well, I’ve had the same thing happen to me - walk into a room and people roll their eyes and say, ‘Oh, no - a homo!’ as if I were indicative of every homosexual male in the world.” So then that got me thinking more as I read this thread.

Absolutely true.

Because, like Arnold said, what you believe affects other people, simply because it affects who you are.

And some of them vote on ballot measures at the polls. I am very, very concerned about what other people believe about gay men and lesbians, because what they think will, ultimately, directly affect my life.

And this is a reason that I stick my nose in, and at least try to get to the point where I feel I’ve been heard and understood (and if they still believe what they believe after I’ve given it the ol’ college try, then I am comfortable knowing I did my best). For example, CalifBoomer said some very nice things to me in another thread, and I changed his mind about anti-gay discrimination. I made him think about his point of view, and when he did, he shifted slightly, and that, in turn, affects me, because his attitude towards me has now changed. Did I intend for him to change his mind? Actually, no - I just wanted him to really hear what I had to say, since I really listened to what he had to say.

So, to answer your OP, I do care what other people think, whether it is creation vs. evolution, or someone’s view on gay marriages, because ultimately, their beliefs will affect me, and if I can at least be heard, let alone change their minds, then I think I’ve acted responsibly.

Esprix

Ask the Gay Guy!

44

So, how do you feel about ignorance and apathy? Anyone?

45

The reason why I ‘care’ when I meet a creatinist is contained within this statement by yosemitebade:

… In fact, I do not want to force Creation to be taught it schools. I was taught Evolution in schools, and it didn’t force me to believe in it. I see no reason why other Christian/Creationist kids can’t survive school like I did, with their Creationists beliefs intact. …

You see, it is my belief that if Yosemitebabe had been taught about science, evolution and the scientific method correctly then it would have “force[d her] to believe in it.” The fact that I meet so many Creationists who claim to have been “taught evolution” and still disbelieve it leads me into worry about the state of scientific education in our schools. Personally, I couldn’t possibly care less what Yosemitebabe believes sitting in her own living room, but I take her believe as evidence that either science educators in this country are so nervous about alienating the creationists that they soft-peddle science -OR- that the creationists are taking over the school boards and squeezing science out a la Kansas. Either thought makes me nervous indeed.

Jess

Remember the Straight Dope credo: It’s all about wiping out ignorance, not coddling the ignorant.

46

Too many posts here to answer everything, but I do still have one thing I’d like to repeat - HOW is my belief damaging to you? Not “how MIGHT it be” but HOW?

I just don’t get that. I don’t understand why it is so all-fired important that I agree with the rest of you on this. And that is the way it is looking to me right now. If you look at the whole of my posts, you will see that I am fairly liberal - I am not going to vote to put Creation in school, I am for Same Sex Marriage - pretty liberal in many areas. I basically figure if it’s not hurting me, I don’t have a problem with it. Sure, I have a few conservative streaks, but I don’t find any tangible connection between that and my belief in Creationism. I am a complex individual, just like the rest of you, with complex beliefs, put there for complex reasons.

You obviously think there is some mysterious way that my belief is posing some risk to humanity. In some people, perhaps such a belief in Creation might be posing a risk (in how they vote, etc.) but I’d like to find out how my belief is with me. And, please bear in mind, not every single belief I have is linked to my belief in Creation. Sheesh - I just don’t see how any of this is your business, sorry.

I cannot believe this attitude. Once again, why is it so all-fired important that I believe the way you think I should? I am beginning to think that this desire to convince Creationists that they are wrong wrong wrong is just as much of a crusade as it is for (some) Creationists to “convert” Evolutionists. You both seem to be on some fricking mission. Which is fine, I guess, but leave me out of it.

Sorry to be a little terse, but if you read my previous posts, I generally don’t give a damn about other people’s beliefs, as long as they leave me out of it. So to not be able to enjoy the same courtesy back seems … bizarre.

Polydactyl Cats Unlimited
“A Cat Cannot Have Too Many Toes”

47

Fine - we’re all just argumentative SOB’s. :slight_smile:

Esprix

Ask the Gay Guy!

48

Re-reading these posts, I thought I’d better comment on this too.

I was just taught Evolution, I cannot remember if it was “soft pedaled” or not. It was a long time ago, I’m an old broad. (Not yet 40, but “old” nonetheless!) I don’t want to get into specifics, since that is not the nature of this thread, but I do have a mind of my own. I remember when I was 8 my church gave me this little booklet, where I was to write down my finances, so I could determine how much tithes I “owed”. I was to turn in the filled-out booklet to the church. At 8 years old, I said (in essence) “Bullshit! This is none of their business!” (Sounds like me! ;)) And I never turned in the little book. I mention this to illustrate that I had a mind of my own about many things back then - still do. I had a mind of my own about my Evolution education as well.

My feeling is, that if the parents want their kids to learn about Creation, take the kid to Sunday School. And, when a kid gets older, they will decide what they want to believe. They’ll get to decide what jives with them. Believe it or not, some people choose to retain their religious beliefs, all on their own. Or they choose to change their beliefs. All on their own, as adults/young adults. They see their options, they see all the alternatives that they can choose to believe in, and the make their choice. Their choice, not anyone else’s. You can discuss the issues with them, but in the end, it is none of your business.

49

I disagree! Please post cites for that assertion and a point-by-point logical explanation (with footnotes).

50

yosemitebabe says:

and

Here’s one example of where you belief is harmful. You’re helping perpetuate ignorance. Would you feel the same way about Einstein’s physics? i.e. we should teach kids about relativity, and then tell them it’s not necessarily right. How about Newtonian physics? Can we teach the kids any scientific “truths” at all, or does every scientific theory need to be preceded by “you have to verify this yourself because what we’re teaching you might be false.” So your beliefs can potentially affect the way science is taught in schools, the same schools that my child might be going to some day.

It is too my business. What if your religious beliefs include the fact that all women must wear a veils and should not go to school? What if your religious beliefs are that gays are sinners and homosexuality should be outlawed? As said above, no one is an island. If enough people believe something, it eventually becomes a cultural norm and/or translated into law. Look at the position of women in Afghanistan.

51

Conversely, look at the women of the U.S.

The women of Afghanistan have been in varying degrees of repression for a long time, due to cultural norms/mores, but ‘Western’ women have made a ‘new’ truth or law that we happen to find more attractive as a society.

As for whether schoolchildren should be taught that Newtonian Physics or Einstein’s theories are not necesarily right, damn right!

I want my child taught “This is what we believe, this is why we believe it, there could be more to it than this, but this is the best we have at the moment. Please do what you can to advance this knowledge”

Why do I want this? Because Einstein said, “the more I learn about science, the more I believe in God”

In the end, either will prove the truth of the other.

52

The truth about Einstein and God, in his own words:

“It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.” [Albert Einstein, 1954, from “Albert Einstein: The Human Side”]

“Scientific research is based on the idea that everything that takes place is determined by laws of nature, and therefore this holds for the action of people. For this reason, a research scientist will hardly be inclined to believe that events could be influenced by a prayer, i.e. by a wish addressed to a Supernatural Being.” [Albert Einstein, 1936, Source: “Albert Einstein: The Human Side”]

"I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the kind that we experience in ourselves. Neither can I nor would I want to conceive of an individual that survives his physical death; let feeble souls, from fear or absurd egoism, cherish such thoughts. [Albert Einstein,The World as I See It]

53

You know something yosemite? I honestly don’t care one whit what you believe. You can sit in your room and believe in space aliens and leprechauns for all I care.

I only get involved in the debates when someone makes a misstatement about what “Science Says”. If I know that someone is making a erroneous statement of fact, I feel obligated to correct it.

You may notice that I rarely participate in religious threads and I never do politics. That is because I do not give a rat’s ass what anyone believes on a Message Board.

54

I couldn’t agree with this more. What I don’t want my children to be taught is “Newton’s equations seem to explain the movement of the planets to a great degree of accuracy, but on the other hand the planets might be an illusion created by God to make us believe Newton’s theory for his own mysterious reasons, and in reality there’s nothing out there.”

55

Yosemitebabe said:

In this case, the scientific community, using science and looking at evidence. The results are in, creationism is nonsense from a scientific standpoint. Same is true of psychic power, alien abductions, Nessie, Therapeutic Touch, homeopathy, etc. (At least until and unless somebody provides decent scientific evidence for any of them.)

That’s great. Do you have the science to back it up, or is this just another belief like your belief in creationism? If it’s just a belief, then that’s fine for you, but don’t try to claim it’s valid for everybody, or, like with creationists making claims, somebody will start to ask questions about it.

Individual things, while “nonsense,” may not be dangerous. But that mode of thinking, as has been discussed, can be.

Let me show a non-creationist example. Some people believe in psychics. They go, get their palms read or whatever, spend a few bucks, and that’s it. Is this nonsense? Yes. Is it dangerous? Dunno. How much money do they have to spend? If they are rich, it doesn’t seem too terribly dangerous. Until, that is, they go to the psychic who is also a full-fledged con artist and who rips them off for hundreds of thousands of dollars (no, I’m not making this up – it happens with regularity). NOW does it become dangerous? Where was the line? The line was drawn with the belief that psychics are real.

Now, does this mean I’m going to “pester” every believer in psychic power? No. But if somebody makes it clear to me that they believe in it, I will point out the problems. If they don’t want to hear it, then I’ll stop – unless they keep crowing about psychic powers, that is.

I had said: “In other words, I’m not sure it’s even possible to be a creationist and not have that affect your life and the lives of others at all.” You responded:

Similar to what I said above. To me, being a creationist means accepting pure blind faith over science. I don’t think you can get around it. That means it is likely that you will live your life in a certain way. Also, let’s look at my creationist friends. Do you think they will be open to their son having a career in biology? I doubt it! They teach him that dinosaurs either didn’t really exist or walked among humans. That isn’t going to affect him at all?

They are allowed to believe anything they want. I think you’re misunderstanding something I said.

I had said: “It will always bother me to know that someone, somewhere, believes in something I consider utterly ridiculous. Maybe it’s a character flaw of mine. < shrug >” You replied:

Ah, but there’s the rub. Some of us do believe we are being affected by it. Maybe not by your belief, but by the other 9 out of 10 creationists who aren’t as content to sit back and just believe in the comfort of their own homes.

I have found that different people care about different things. Some scientists, for example, are content to sit back and ignore the creationists as a bunch of loonies who don’t deserve the time of day. Others see that it is an educational and scientific issue and want to take action.

“Darwin’s theory of evolution by natural selection is, to my mind, the most beautiful in all of science.”
– Susan Blackmore, The Meme Machine

56

Thank you, Dr. F., you are a kindred spirit on this issue!

Many of you have brought up social ills (like Afghanistan) and I guess I have to repeat myself again - the OP stated that when there is evidence of political impact (I’ll add social impact) to someone’s beliefs, then that is a different kettle of fish, and certainly worth “caring” about. I’m with you 100% there - I’m against any religious belief that oppresses in such a way. But the OP is not about that. (Keep on having to repeat that…)

Regarding Evolution in school - I am not against Evolution being taught, full-fledged taught, (as stated before, several times.) But, what if a student sits through an Evolution class, and still decides (because of their religious beliefs) that they accept Creation instead? What do all of you want done? Do you want the teacher to strong-arm them and tell them that they must believe it in their heart of hearts? That they’ll fail the class unless the believe deep down inside? That it isn’t good enough to read all the text books, do all the tests and homework correctly? Do you think that you have the right to dictate what they believe in their heart of hearts? Are not people still entitled to believe or not believe in what they want? I cannot believe that any of you want that, but I don’t see what else you really expect, other than to educate the kids the best you know how. The rest is up to them, it is no one else’s business after that.

That’s it! That’s it! I don’t fault you for having a problem with the Creationists who are “aren’t as content to sit back”. If they are doing something that you find has social/political impact - that is a different kettle of fish, like I have stated in the OP.

Fair enough. If you feel someone is being rooked, you tell them once. If they don’t want to hear it, they shut up about it, you shut up about it, it’s not a topic of discussion anymore. Same with me - I can certainly consider myself “told” about Evolution. I got it - I understand you all think Creation is nonsense, got it, got it. And yet I still believe. And I am not “crowing” about how Creation is right. I’m not participating in the Creation/Evolution threads here, debating anything, trying to convince anyone. So, all I ask now is that I not be “pestered”. which you seem to agree is the thing to do, David. Thanks.

57

When I first came to this message board, I found a neat quote that I thought would be a good sig line. But the more I thought about it, the sillier the idea of saying the same thing over and over again, even when it doesn’t have anything to do with the topic at hand, seemed to me. But I think in this case I think it is appropriate.

-Ryan
" ‘Ideas on Earth were badges of friendship or enmity. Their content did not matter.’ " -Kurt Vonnegut, * Breakfast of Champions *

58

What he said. It concerns me that people raise their children to believe that I am abhorrent, because not only will the gay kids end up self-loathing, but I think it’s harmful for any kid to grow up second-classing an entire group of people. Some people think the creationism/evolution issue is just as important (I don’t, myself), but, as has been pointed out, no matter how much you may say, “What I believe doesn’t matter to anyone but me,” truly no man is an island.

I’ll also state again that although I may disagree with someone, I do not necessarily always engage them in the hopes of making them change their minds; after all, I’ve learned a lot from people with whom I disagree. I just want them to really hear and understand my point of view as much as I want to hear and understand theirs, and, if after that clear exchange of ideas, they still maintain their view, then so be it. Usually reason prevails. :slight_smile:

Esprix

Ask the Gay Guy!

59

True, true. But that is not what I’m doing. The OP is not about what people teach their kids about gay people. And, for the record, I don’t have kids, doubtful I ever will - but if I ever do, I won’t be teaching them any homophobic crap. It would sort of go against my basic belief that if it isn’t hurting me, no skin off my nose. No reason to make some other soul on this Earth miserable over something that is bascially none of my business.

It’s easier to be an island if you have no kids, and I don’t, probably won’t! And since I don’t preach or nag to try to convince people to agree with me on this issue, I still fail to see how my private beliefs are damaging.

I still just see this mostly as a “busybody” thing - people who just won’t let go that I believe something that they don’t like. Sorry, I still await for someone to convince me that I am actively, concretely doing harm to them or society. When they can do this, I’ll think they have a point, but I do not see any anyone doing that as yet. Sure, they talk about “what ifs”, “this could happen”, (but I haven’t done it, won’t do it) about teaching kids “wrong” things (and I don’t have any kids.) They talk about Afghanistan, all sorts of things that have no direct relation to what I, yosemitebabe, am doing by just sitting in my home and believing.

60

yosemitebabe, I’ve been reading this thread, and found it to be getting so abstruse (or something, I don’t know, let’s just say that trying to get my mind around all of the things people were saying, and trying to simultaneously believe that everybody was actually reading everyone else’s posts was making my head hurt) that I had to just go back and reread your OP. Well, I found the following statement:

I suspect that many people, when they encounter such a statement, react to it just the same as if the statement had been

To such people, scientific fact is not compatible with the concepts of belief or disbelief. So, in the opening post of this thread, you make a statement that many persons could be forgiven for viewing as surreal, then assert that the statement is made in a social and political vacuum. You complete this tour de force by inviting all and sundry to explain to you why some unnamed individual was bugged by this belief that you hold in a political and social vacuum.

Many of the responses have registered skepticism as to the possibility that such a vacuum exists in anyone’s world view, and have based their speculations on the assumption that their skepticism is justified.

Others have allowed for the existence of such a vacuum, given you the benefit of the doubt as to your assertion that the vacuum applies in your case, and attempted to assure you that they have no problem with what you breathe while you hold any beliefs you see fit to hold. Although it occurs to me that if you were to mix some nitrogen with the oxygen you’re breathing (say to about a ratio of 80 parts N2 to 20 parts O2), your beliefs might be subject to spontaneous alteration. :smiley:

Seriously, though, I respect your right to hold beliefs that provide you with spiritual nourishment, and I even respect your right to (irrationally, in my view) disbelieve the hypotheses and results of scientific inquiry, provided you are scrupulous in your resolve to refrain from working to the detriment of the scientific method.

All in all, I wonder if this thread might not have been happier in MPSIMS, with the rest of the “why do you care?” issues :wink: .