kaylasdad: Yes, my head is spinning from all the various ideas being brought forth, and yes, I think that this might have been better in MPSIMS as well at this point! I think things are winding down, or should be, on this thread.
Certainly, and sure, I don’t have any intention of “working to the detriment of the scientific method.”
My main point here is that there comes a point when you gotta leave a person alone, to their beliefs, unless they are actively screwing things up for you. (Some of you agree with this, thankfully.) Also, there are many groups that thing they’ve cornered the market on the Truth. Evolutionists appear to claim 100% certainty that Evolution is The Truth (or am I misunderstanding this part?) Yet others disagree. They may be full of shit, but they sincerely disagree. They feel just as strongly that they have The Truth. PETA feels just as strongly that they need to convince people that they need to change their way of thinking on animal rights. So many groups, so many Truths. All sincere, all heartfelt, all believing that people need to share these Truths or society will suffer. Yikes. It’s a lot of energy being spent, and sometimes it’s wasted, trying to bend people that aren’t about to bend. Maybe sometimes it’s worth the effort, sometimes it isn’t.
No, I know what I say here isn’t going to make a dent. I don’t even think I made a coherent point. Well, it’s late.
Oh, you aren’t doing any harm whatsoever by simply believing, as long as you don’t mind some people calling you foolish. No, you’re not raising kids or trying to convert anyone or voting or running for the school board. (Actually, you sound kind of boring… Kidding!)
But everyone is trying to make the point that, eventually, your beliefs will more than likely influence some other person(s), even in ways you might not know.
“I believe in Spinoza’s God who reveals himself in the
orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with
fates and actions of human beings.”
I see nothing in the quotes you post that is inconsistent with what I poosted.
Esprix- My feeling is that, eventually everything you do, say or believe will eventually influence every other particle of the world, in ways science is continually discovering.
“I believe in Spinoza’s God who reveals himself in the
orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with
fates and actions of human beings.”
Also:
"A human being is part of the whole, called by us “Universe,” a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest–a kind of optical delusion of consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us.
Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty."
I see nothing in the quotes you post that is inconsistent with what I poosted.
Esprix- My feeling is that, eventually everything you do, say or believe will eventually influence every other particle of the world, in ways science is continually discovering.
[ul][li]You are voting on a proposition as to whether or not to allow creationism to be taught in public schools. Which way do you vote?[/li][li]“Hello, I’m from Time Magazine and I’m doing an opinion poll on science in America. Do you agree with the theory of evolution?” What do you answer? (Please note that these statistics may very well be used in a public debate over the appropriateness of evolution teaching in science class.)[/li]Your friend has a 13-year-old boy. All three of you are having lunch today. The 13-year-old boy mentions “today in science class Christie told the teacher that evolution is wrong and that he wouldn’t learn it.” His mother tells him “Christie is wrong.” The boy turns to you and ask “What do you think, yosemitebabe?” What do you answer?[/ul]
Sorry, my third example was poorly worded. Let me rephrase it.
Your friend has a 13-year-old boy. All three of you are having lunch today. The 13-year-old boy mentions “today in science class Christie told the teacher that evolution is wrong and that she wouldn’t learn it.” His mother tells him “Christie is mistaken.” The boy turns to you and ask “What do you think, yosemitebabe? Is the theory of evolution wrong?” What do you answer?
What?!?! WHAT!?!? Doesn’t anyone read my posts?!!?! Sorry Arnold - not really directed at you, I consider you to be very smart and insightful. But, I answered this!!!Several times!!! No, I am not for allowing Creationism in schools. Read my several mentions of that, and my reasons for it, earlier in this thread.
Oh please. What do you want from me? Do you want me to lie? Maybe I should deny that I am a Christian also. Who knows - perhaps the polls would also be curious to my general religious beliefs as well, to determine whether they want to retain Christmas celebrations in public schools, etc., or how important it would be to enforce “secular” things in school. I am not going to deny anything. Merely asking me if I believe is not the same as asking me if I would object or protest to others being taught, or if they should or should not believe. If the pollster asked (and I strongly suspect they would, if they are going to ask me about my beliefs on Evolution to begin with) how I felt about Evolution being taught in the schools, I’d tell them it didn’t bother me, and that I was taught Evolution in school as well.
I think this is a pretty remote one. No one has ever polled me (except for that one time about bottled water… ;)) so the odds are extremely thin that I’ll ever be asked this. But if it’ll make you happy, I promise I’ll tell them “no comment”. I don’t care if Evolution is taught in schools, since I survived being taught it. If you really feel that my admitting that I don’t believe in it to this hypothetical pollster would profoundly affect the schools in their decision to teach it, hey - no problem. I’ll tell them nothing. Honestly. I have promised I won’t mess with others being taught Evolution, and I mean it. No skin off my nose.
I think I’ve already answered this, several times. Over and over again. Sheesh. Why do I bother? I don’t object to kids being taught. I don’t think it’s wrong to teach them about it. If I made it through Evolution class with by religious beliefs intact, so can others. In the end, kids get to decide for themselves.
OK, my bad. I apologize. I’m not as smart and insightful as all that (thank you for the compliment though.) You did say in a previous post “So, I am not for putting creation in schools, and would not vote for it.” So my first hypothetical issue had already been answered. (Does “I would not vote for it” also mean “I would vote against it?”)
As far as the opinion poll, you say “What do you want from me? Do you want me to lie?”
No, I don’t want you to lie. I would prefer you tell the truth. I am only trying to show that your beliefs can end up having an influence on society and people around you.
As far as the last question, I rephrased it because I realized it was poorly said the first time. Here’s my rephrased question:
As in the second hypothetical situation, I think you should answer the truth. But again, in that case, you are influencing someone. (We can suppose that if the 13-year-old asks you, it’s because he respects your opinion.)
I am not debating creationism vs. evolution, I am just trying to show you why people care what you believe, and how it can influence others.
You claim (which I don’t believe) that Einstein said “the more I learn about science, the more I believe in God.” This implied the Christian idea of God, and I was trying to draw a distinction between that and what he truly believed.
Spinoza (and perhaps Einstein) was a pantheist who equated Nature and God. Einstein frequently referred to the order of the universe in this way, but he certainly did not believe in a Supreme Being.
I don’t want anything “shoved” down kid’s throats. If some zealous Creationists wanted to push Creation on schoolkids, I would vote against it. Such tactics give me the heebie-jeebies. I will try to (briefly) explain why I feel so strongly about this: As I have alluded to before, I am a Classical music fan. Growing up, for whatever reason (and trust me, I was not a “militant” Classical fan) I was hounded and bugged and pestered beyond reason about my tastes, by earnest but completely obnoxious Rock ‘n’ Roll fans. I was minding my own business, they wouldn’t let it go. (I am serious.) They were trying to Rock down my throat. This experience totally turned me off Rock music, I rarely listen to it, even to this day. I consider such aggressive tactics somewhat akin to “aversion therapy”. That made a big impression on me. Therefore, the last thing I want in the world is for religious zealots to shove anything religious own anyone’s throats using aggressive “aversion therapy”, seeing as I actually have a good opinion of religion. I believe it is a completely counter-productive thing to do.
Yes, that is true. You make a point, no one is completely an island on every issue. I would not want to be an “island” on issues like vegetarianism, or saving the Redwoods, or what have you. But the Creation issue is unique for me…I don’t want anyone thinking that because I beleive in it myself, that I would also want it pushed into schools, or influence others to share the belief. I am not on any crusade about it, at all. See my reasons stated above about why I don’t want it pushed on anyone else. I just think people need to make up their own mind about it.
Regarind answering poll questions: Actually, I do remember another poll I was contacted about recently - I was completely useless to the pollster. They asked me what I thought of environmental spending. I said “Depends on what State you are talking about” I asked them to clarify their question. They let that drop. They then asked me about abortion. I also asked them questions, trying to get them to clarify themselves, they wouldn’t. I hemmed and hawed about my opinion, since I didn’t really think I could answer it with the easy “yes” or “no” that they were looking for. They basically cut me off and hung up. I’d do the same on any poll regarding Evolution as well - I am not the ideal target for polls, I talk too much and ask too many questions! I certainly would not leave them with the impression that I thought Creation should be pushed into public school.
First, I’d look to the parent of the 13 year old boy. What is that parent teaching the kid at home? Is the parent an Evolutionist, or a Creationist? First and foremost, I’d not say anything that would directly contradict what the parent is teaching the child, or that in any way would confuse the kid. I would not want the parent to “undo” the stuff I’d told the child because the kid was confused. Then, maybe I’d say that many people have different opinions about it - that I don’t personally buy it, but I am religious, and think that God had a big hand in the creation of the world. I’d tell him that many intelligent people do believe it, including many of my friends that I respect. I’d also tell the kid that the school is obligated to teach this scientific theory, and that it isn’t going to hurt anyone (including Creationists) to be exposed to it.
In a small way, perhaps, in some rare or isolated cases. In the hypothetical instance of the 13 year old kid, since I would take pains to not contradict anything that the parents are teaching this kid, I don’t think I’d have a profound impact. Rather, I’d more likely teach the kid tolerance (if they were an Evolutionist) since they would be exposed to a Creationist who was not loopy or a zealot. (At least I don’t consider myself a “loopy zealot”! ;)) If the kid were a Creationist, I think I might influence them to not get their knickers in a bunch about being taught Evolution in schools. I don’t think that my influence in this (hypothetical) situation with the 13 year old kid would be so detrimental to society.
Well, I think we’ve beaten this subject to death. I have a better understanding of your position, and I hope you have a better understanding of why people might care what you believe.
When people learn that you disagree with evolution, they are not privy to the explanations you’ve given us, how you would never reveal it to anyone else under any circumstances. So I could understand why people might want to argue it over with you.
And to give you another example, if someone told me “The earth is flat”, I wouldn’t bother trying to convince them otherwise, but (for whatever reason) I would still be irritated that someone would think that.
But IRL I don’t engage in debates that much, in fact I’m a rare visitor to the GD forum. Rest assured that I won’t be hounding you!
To:yosemitebabe- Very interesting debate you started here!As to why non-believers care about our beliefs,haven’t you noticed that many people fly into a flaming rage at the very mention of Jesus Christ? Why? I think its because He challenges THEIR religion-these people are every bit as religious as we are,despite their claims to being “rational”.Their faith is called “Science”,and their messiah is named Charles Darwin.They get as offended when we challenge their faith as we do when they challenge ours.Hope this gave you food for thought!
You know, Brian, I believe Yosemitebabe was complaining about people saddling her with a whole set of unflattering and untrue stereotypes simply due to one of her beliefs. Perhaps you should think about that before you start making sweeping generalizations about atheists or evolutionists (many of whom are devout followers of Jesus Christ).
Now, if you’ll pardon me, I have to go fly into a flaming rage. Oh, and say a couple “Hail Darwins” and preach from The Origin of Species on a streetcorner.
First it is just disingenous (sp?) to say that creationism is not a political issue, and that your beliefs don’t matter. The reason people get upset about creationism is largely because of the threat it poses to science and rationality in the U.S. Saying you don’t care about that is like saying you have no objection to speed limits, you just choose to drive 100 mph, and that’s your choice.
However leaving politics aside, people here get upset because, lets face it, creationism is really really stupid. This isn’t a subject of debate, like vegetarianism or classical music. There is no, repeat no, repeat again no, evidence for scientific creationism. The mistakes and blunders I have seen creationists place on this board boggle the mind. It is not a matter of opinion, it is a matter of being willfully, deliberatly ignorant. When people pretend this is a matter of debate and opinion, this is going to piss off people who actually think.
Remember the message of the board. We are fighting ignorance. Creationism is ignorance. Do not then be surprised if people get involved when they fight it.
Sorry if this post is a bit vehement, but I feel really strongly about this.
Oh dear. I thought this thread was happily dead and buried.
I have to reply to one thing though:
So is believing in God, since no one can offer any proof He exists. So what do you want to do about me believing in God? It’s none of your business, really.
No evidence for God, either. I’m not a scientist, I’ not trying to offer scientific proof, I’m not trying to convince anyone of anything. (That’s what this whole thread has been about me insisting that I’m not out to convince anyone of anything.) Tell me I’m stupid, knock yourself out. But bottom line, it isn’t really any of your business.
When you find me hammering out creationist doctorine on the Evolution/Creation threads, then tell me this. I have deliberately avoided that kind of debate. I am avoiding it now.
As strongly as you feel that this is an important issue, I feel equally strongly that…(sorry to be blunt) I want to be left alone.
I guess that would depend on you. Not that I expect you to be able to give an objective answer, but when you notice people going into this “flaming rage,” what did you say to them? Did you act high and mighty like you did in this message? Or did you just happen to mention Christ in casual conversation? I’m betting on the former.
You really do need to go read up on this subject.
“Darwin’s theory of evolution by natural selection is, to my mind, the most beautiful in all of science.”
– Susan Blackmore, The Meme Machine
Since the OP seems to not necessarily be about CvE, but why people care, I feel the need to point out that this is the third such thread which yosemitebabe has either started or instigated in some way - the others being vegeterianism and her love for classical music.
Seems to me that yosemitebabe cares a lot about people caring a lot… Oxymoronic, no?
The fact is, if someone insulted, say, the music industry, my response if I didn’t care would be to ignore it. If I cared, I would debate it. To wonder aloud why they care but not taking on the questions raised themselves seems… like a cop-out. They have to say SOMETHING but is does not comment on what is actually being said - a borderline ad hominem is you get right down to it. And it allows the person to have the perception that their little views go unchallenged, since they are sticking their heads in the sand like an ostrich and avoiding any real dialogue on the subject.
Ultimately, unless someone starts a thread which says, yosemitebabe is stupid, you are under no obligation to care. So why do you care? See? Circular reasoning, babe…
But to answer the question as best I can (and as best it deserves), people care for the same reason you care. And it’s obvious that you do; you’re just a shade disingenuous about your expression of this.
Since the OP seems to not necessarily be about CvE, but why people care, I feel the need to point out that this is the third such thread which yosemitebabe has either started or instigated in some way - the others being vegeterianism and her love for classical music.
Seems to me that yosemitebabe cares a lot about people caring a lot… Oxymoronic, no?
The fact is, if someone insulted, say, the music industry, my response if I didn’t care would be to ignore it. If I cared, I would debate it. To wonder aloud why they care but not taking on the questions raised themselves seems… like a cop-out. They have to say SOMETHING but is does not comment on what is actually being said - a borderline ad hominem is you get right down to it. And it allows the person to have the perception that their little views go unchallenged, since they are sticking their heads in the sand like an ostrich and avoiding any real dialogue on the subject.
Ultimately, unless someone starts a thread which says, yosemitebabe is stupid, you are under no obligation to care. So why do you care? See? Circular reasoning, babe…
But to answer the question as best I can (and as best it deserves), people care for the same reason you care. And it’s obvious that you do; you’re just a shade disingenuous about your expression of this.
I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR:
Three days, 12 hours, 22 minutes and 57 seconds.
140 cigarettes not smoked, saving $17.58.
Life saved: 11 hours, 40 minutes.
Kidding!)
I don’t object to kids being taught. I don’t think it’s wrong to teach them about it. If I made it through Evolution class with by religious beliefs intact, so can others. In the end, kids get to decide for themselves.