Just finished "Atlas Shrugged" -- should I read "The Fountainhead"? [spoilers OK]

I didn’t necessarily want to revive this thread about the AS movie, but since I just finished the book last night, I wanted to talk about it a bit.

I can’t really say that I liked the book, but it did hold my interest. Yes, I read all of Galt’s speech. I was determined to, since the people around me who had read the book kept exaggerating the length of it, at one point suggesting the damn thing was 200 pages long and that I’d never survive. Well, I survived. But I’m not sure it was worth the struggle.

At any rate, I’m just curious to know your opinions about whether there’s any reason for me to read “The Fountainhead” at this point. I think I’ve gotten my fill of Rand’s philosophy for a while, and if “Fountainhead” is more of the same, I’d prefer to just skip it. However, I also realize that beneath the heavy-handed theme of AS, there was actually an interesting story, and maybe a similar aspect would make “Fountainhead” worth my time.

What are your thoughts?

And also, in homage to the previously referenced thread, I think both Jolie and Pitt are terrible choices for the potential film. The timing is unfortunate, because I think Jodie Foster would have been perfect as Dagny about 10 years ago. I still think she could pull it off, even though she’s older than the age ascribed to Dagny in the book. I have no thoughts about Galt’s character. For some reason, George Clooney comes to mind as the proper man to play Hank Reardon, and I think Tim Robbins ought to play Jim Taggert.

But please, share your casting thoughts!

The Fountainhead is a better book, actually.

By the way, in reference to the movie, here is a fairly detailed article about the status and future plans for what apparently is going to be a trilogy.

Read it. Maybe not right after reading AS, but definitely read it.

No, you’ve suffered enough.

I agree with silenus. It’s a better book–even if what merits its higher standing is that it’s essentially the same novel as Atlas Shrugged, except it has a smaller cast of characters and it’s much, much shorter. (Plus, no one has a thousand page soapbox expressed over the radio.)

It’s pretty much more of the same, although I preferred Atlas. I felt like Fountainhead’s characters were pure cardboard archetypes; Atlas’ characters felt more like real people so it was easier to get into the story as well as the philosophy.

I preferred The Fountainhead (maybe because I read it first).

But I agree with Jake4 - you may not want to read it right away. Give yourself a bit of a break! :slight_smile:

I loathed AS, but I found The Fountainhead to be quite entertaining. And my political views are the exact opposite of Rand.

:eek: One of the Google Ads is for an “Ayn Rand Dating Service”!

Fountainhead has a more interesting antagonist (Toohey) and a less sympathetic supporting protagonist (Wynand). The characters in Atlas Shrugged are one-dimensional by comparison. Toohey’s speech about power is way better than Galt’s 53-page screed about individualism.

More interestingly, read Fountainhead and watch Citizen Kane and RKO 182 (a movie about the making of Citizen Kane). Kane and Wynand are based on the same person - H. Randolph Hearst.

I concur.

The Fountainhead’s basic political message is that the whole range of socialist, communist, and progressive movements in general (exemplified by Toohey) were all about, not fighting against the bourgeoisie to elevate the proletariat, but fighting against excellence to elevate mediocrity. Toohey is a man with no real creative talents who hates everyone so gifted; he hangs out with, and promotes, a group of “individualist” artists who are, indeed, nonconformists, but also completely mediocre; he dedicates himself to spoil all the works of Roarke (e.g., his Temple, which is ruined with superfluous add-ons) because he recognizes Roarke as a true creative genius. Now, you could make a lot of valid criticisms of socialism/communism/etc., but that ain’t one of 'em!

I also found the character of Roarke as “man as he should be” (so described in Rand’s afterword) to fall utterly flat, on those terms. Keating is a man who cares about architecture only because it gives him the chance to be a star, i.e., makes him look good in the eyes of others – and he can see himself only through his reflections in his admirers’ eyes. Roarke is the opposite extreme – not only doesn’t he give a shit about what other people think of him, he doesn’t give a shit about other people at all. The architecture-school lecture, early in the book, about an architect’s duty to “serve the client” first and foremost is included only for the sake of refuting that whole way of thinking. Roarke knows very well that he knows better than his prospective clients – knows, in particular, that what they think they want in a building usually derives from their trying to live up to the way they think society perceives/defines them – and he usually won’t give them what they want, because it would violate his artistic integrity. But what’s his alternative? Roarke, it appears, is a man so devoted to Architecture for Architecture’s Sake that he would be perfectly content, given the funding, to put up a building in the Gobi Desert, never to be used or even seen by anyone. Unlike the “selfless man” Keating, Roarke has a “self,” but there appears to be very little in it; he’s just as much an empty shell as Keating, only in a different way. His soul is a vast, harsh, sublime modernist edifice with no occupants.

I will give Rand props for making Roarke an architect. No other field of creative endeavor would have served the purpose. Architecture is an obvious metaphor for any kind of effort to design or build human society. Unlike say, painting, architects produce things everybody has to live with. Architecture is the queen of arts – it draws from and influences everything else. It embodies esthetic but also functional principles. Every building reflects certain assumptions about history, tradition and society.

But I wonder if Rand ever noticed that the most distinctly Roarkian-modernist buildings put up in her lifetime were built by the Nazis and the Communists? Read the descriptions of the few things Roarke actually manages to get built – the Temple, the mansion – and then look at some pix of Albert Speer’s Chancellory in Berlin and the Soviet Palaces of Culture, etc.

I started, but never finished, Atlas Shrugged because I was disappointed that it wasn’t more science fiction-y like the novella Anthem. From the descriptions of the story (civilization collapses after the individualists say F.U. to the rest of the world), I guess I was expecting something Heinlein might have written in one of his more libertarian moods. A.S. has a very little of that, but nowhere near enough to make it anything but a slog. The Fountainhead sounds even worse; it’s apparently about the angst of an Artist facing the world’s demand that he sell out. Am I mistaken?

W. Not H.

Yeah, got him confused with H.R. Hughes for a sec.

[QUOTE=BrainGlutton]
The Fountainhead’s basic political message is that the whole range of socialist, communist, and progressive movements in general (exemplified by Toohey) were all about, not fighting against the bourgeoisie to elevate the proletariat, but fighting against excellence to elevate mediocrity. Toohey is a man with no real creative talents who hates everyone so gifted; he hangs out with, and promotes, a group of “individualist” artists who are, indeed, nonconformists, but also completely mediocre; he dedicates himself to spoil all the works of Roarke (e.g., his Temple, which is ruined with superfluous add-ons) because he recognizes Roarke as a true creative genius. Now, you could make a lot of valid criticisms of socialism/communism/etc., but that ain’t one of 'em!

[quote]

I’m not so sure. There is certainly a strong thread of ‘artistic egalitarianism’ among the left. You often hear comments like, “Who’s to say what’s good in art?” Then you have the deconstructionist movement, avante-garde artists, wacky performance artists - and a depressing tendency among some to refuse to criticise their work because what matters is the act of expression itself, not the result.

This isn’t of course universal, or even the majority of opinion on the left. But there is a certain strain on the left that does delight in refusing to make value judgements and applauding excrutiatingly bad art that just happens to be popular, or anti-establishment, or shocking, or wrapped in suitable lefty labeling.

I don’t think that’s correct at all. Roark’s view is that the architect is an artist, and clients should come to him because they value what he values, and choose to live in buildings that reflect the vision of the artist. He doesn’t think customers are unimportant - in fact, Roarke’s whole aesthetic is that the ‘correct’ kind of building is one that perfectly fits the need of the client without superfluous ‘flourishes’ that add nothing other than to bow to conformity. Cortlandt homes was designed specifically to be excellent at solving his customers’ needs - to provide quality housing to low income people. Roarke took the job solely because he had a passion for that particular problem, and had devised elegant solutions that would meet the needs of the tenants perfectly. In the end, that vision was compromised by exactly what you are decrying - ignoring the needs of the tenants and adding on expensive, useless flourishes that would make the architecture less than ideal for the purposes it had been designed for.

I don’t know - I always got a ‘Frank Lloyd Wright’ vibe when reading descriptions of Roark’s architecture. Years later I learned that Wright was Ayn’s model for Roark’s architecture. I don’t think you can accuse ‘Falling Water’ of being a boring Communist structure.

I have also heard that Roark was based on Frank Lloyd Wright. Having been to Fallingwater, I must say that, if FLW was the model for Roark, I can only hope that Raork was a better structural engineer. (But I doubt that Ayn Rand could have made him a better artist.)
…To answer the OP, I would say, yes, do read the Fountainhead. Or, you could always watch the movie.
BTW, any Ma dopers know anything about the Fountainhead apts on rt 9 in Wesbourough? Any sort of hidden meening there?

  1. Cite?

  2. Beside the point. Rand was using Toohey’s patronage of mediocre art as a metaphor for her take on leftist politics in general as being all about suppressing excellence and exalting mediocrity throughout society – and that’s false. Certainly Communist rule has had that effect in many circumstances (as in the Russia Rand had fled), but it was never consciously intended nor essential to any leftist ideology. Real-life leftist thinkers, leaders and revolutionaries are nothing at all like Toohey in their motives or their thinking. On this point, Rand was either deeply mistaken or deliberately dishonest.

Curiously, George Orwell, such a clear thinker in most respects, got it just as flat wrong – psychologically, I mean. In 1984, when O’Brien finally explains to Winston Smith the Inner Party’s real core motives, it turns out to be a politics based on sadomasochism. The leaders don’t want luxury or long life or happiness for themselves, only power. The aim of power is power – “An endless pressing, pressing, pressing on the nerve of power!” And how does one man prove his power over another? By making him suffer – otherwise you cannot be sure he is obeying your will and not his own. Thus, dissidents like Smith are essential, even to be quietly encouraged and enabled – because without such, the Inner Party members would not have the pleasure of breaking down their minds and building them up again.

There might be some dictators or party officials whose minds actually work that way. There might even be some few who, like O’Brien, are consciously aware of it and revel in it. (Though if you got to know Kim Jong Il, I suspect you would find he is neither a fiend, nor a megalomaniac like O’Brien, nor an intellectual soul-destroyer like Toohey, but an ordinary prick warped by being born to superior opportunities. “All I say is, kings is kings, and you got to make allowances. Take them all around, they’re a pretty ornery lot. It’s the way they’re raised.” – Huckleberry Finn) But it’s not essential to to leftist ideology, not even to totalitarian forms such as Communism. Communism was founded by truly high-minded, altruistic men like Lenin and Trotsky, who wanted what was best for all – and who had the arrogance to presume they knew what was best for all, and to such a degree of scientific certainty that they owed no more tolerance to dissenting views than astronomers owe to the Flat Earth Society. The real tragedy of Communism is that it is a classic case of good intentions paving the road to Hell.

Cite?

In a section of Bertrand Russell’s “Unpopular Essays”, he describes a meeting with Lenin. Lenin laughed at how the richer peasants were lynched. Russell’s impression was one of “Mongol cruelty”, IIRC. He fits right into Orwell’s mold.