I was doing the dishes in between writing and posting. And I never check the preview button, because I have never needed to in the past, but I shall correct that in future with people posting extra shit in between their original post and their addended post. I thought the edit button was only meant for typos and stuff…adding more to the post is fucking wrong and I will complain bitterly in ATMB in a minute.
Despite the fact that she is critical of Islamic culture, Hirsi Ali is would have to step out of character to make such statements as:
The person who wrote that is ignorant and the people who send it on in email are perpetuating ignorance. That’s really a shame.
LorieSmurf, I am a daughter, a step-mother, and a grandmother. It is tough to set boundaries with people we love, but it is healthy to do so. You have done the right thing. You have every reason to be angry.
There are parallels to those who spread hatred and suspicion about the Japanese, the African-Americans, the Jews, the Irish. This is the new monster: the Muslim.
The terrorists on September 11 were Muslim. Therefore we should fear all Muslims? They were also all men. Shouldn’t we fear all men? They were generally pretty young. Fear all young dark-eyed men. Makes sense to me.
How about the Gestapo in WWII? Christians, I think. We need to send out a warning email about Christians. That’s kind of died down lately. Obviously Christians tend to be terrorists too.
Those who circulate that email are engaging in a kind of terrorism too. Who knows who the original source of that letter is? Your mother may be just a tool of some propoganda generating office of a sub-section of the bureau of internal investigations of the third level Central Intelligence Agency staffers who have long lists of anonymous nice mothers and their emails.
You did one thing that was very good. You told your mother what you were angry about. You didn’t cover it up and let it fester and pretend nothing was wrong. And you told her that you didn’t want to talk to her for a while. (That’s good, but you let her know it’s not forever.)
Since this one is different, you might want to consider writing out your feelings. Tell your mother why this time it’s really important to you. Or maybe after you cool off yourself, you will just want to agree to disagree again.
At any rate, because you handled your anger so well, you and your mom will be able to breach the gap again. Maybe you can have a good influence on her thinking.
The quote came from your own link, kambuckta. I presumed you read it in its entirity before posting it. I explained in the edit what had been added to the original words-- but I will accept that you apparently typed up your reply, left it sitting on the screen to do your dishes, then clicked submit.
That kind of thing happens. Although the 21 minute gap between when my editing post appeared on screen and the time of your reply had me wondering what was going on.
Our first line of defense against Muslim terrorists are loyal American Muslims. Muslim extremists generally interact with more moderate Muslim communities. That means that the best chance we have of catching them before they strike comes from the watchful eyes of patriotic Muslims.
Emails like this that demonize and marginalize Muslim Americans make it harder to fight the war on terror. They endanger us all.
I work with a guy who is convinced that the US is a facist police state. Just being from a culture doesn’t automatically mean you have any special insight to that culture.
So your question that I answered was a hypothetical that went against the facts?
You have taken the statements of a person who believes that fundamentalist Islamic beliefs are necessarily in disagreement with the aims and ideals of western democracies and hypothesized that she might have spouted the inflammatory drivel quoted in the OP about a moderate Muslim who clearly does not reject the aims and ideals of western democracies.
I have no problem believing that a person who was raised in a Fundamentalist Islamic society might choose to reject all Islam, just as many persons raised in Fundamentalist Christianty choose to reject all Christianity or persons raised as strict Orthodox Jews may choose to reject Judaism. However, there is a difference between rejecting (a) religion for oneself and leveling a blanket condemnation of every person who continues to be a part of that group based on the rabid actions of some subset of the group.
Since it seems clear that Hirsi Ali would not condemn Representative Ellison, it seems odd to ask how one would react if she had. In order to condemn Ellison in the manner of the glurge posted in the OP, she would have to radically change her approach to the world to become more like Alberto Rivera–which would remove her from the ranks of persons who are not disgruntled (or liars).
[nitpick]More likely pagans or atheists. OKW and Abwher were full of Christians, though.[/nitpick]
The general point is still valid, of course.
Tell your coworker to move to North Korea. I predict enlightenment will ensue.
My dad sent that very e-mail to me a while back. I responded with a quote from President Bush praising Islam and Muslims in America. Dad apparently vets the stuff he sends to me now.
If responding in a way people don’t care for makes them more careful of what they send you, it is a glorious victory in the war against ignorance, I would say.
I left the message board my husband frequents over a hate speech post there aimed towards Muslims - it was not treated like the hate speech it was, the offending poster was not even told to cool it with the hate speech, and the powers that be there chose to hide behind the screen of free speech. I had a strong feeling that if the group the hate was aimed at had been any other group than Muslims, it would have met a very different reaction from the board, and I haven’t been back since. I understand the value of free speech, but there are some things not worth saying, things that you should call people on when they say them.
Where did you get the ‘moderate’ bit from Tom?
From the OP:
(My bolding).
My point was that the aims and ideals and philosophies of observant (‘good’) Muslims are different (and in some cases contradictory) to those of western folks. In some instances those differences are necessarily irreconcilable.
I was in no way suggesting that ALL people who identify themselves as Muslim be considered such.
I think Tom was referring to the political stance of Keith Ellison (MN-5), my Congressman.
Who is not even moderate, he is a strongly liberal Democrat (actually, Democratic-Farmer-Labor). If I can find them, I’ll post some of the attacks his Republican opponents made on him last election, when he was running for the State Legislature – they claimed he was not ‘moderate’, but a dangerous flaming liberal.
You can see his website with his view at www.KeithEllison.org
As t-bonham@scc.net noted, the OP was an attack on Rep. Ellison who is a political liberal (as defined in the U.S.) but who would generally be placed in the category of “moderate” Muslim (in the way that most discussions of the “Islam vs The West” tend to frame the terms).
Barring an attack from some large number of Muslim groups on the religious views of Rep. Ellison, I see no reason to presume that he is not a “good” Muslim. If someone turns up condemnation from al Qaida (or similar groups–and I have not even seen that), it would not remove him from the ranks of “good” Muslims any more than an attack on Catholics Ken Salazar (D - CO) or David Vitter (R - LA) by Pat Robertson or Jimmy Swaggart would remove those gentlemen from the ranks of “good” Christians without similar condemnations from the governing bodies of the Episcopal, Lutheran, and Presbyterian denominations.
So an attack on Rep. Ellison by Ms. Ali seems to set up an odd situation in which she would condemn a man who was not a member of the faction which she has actually condemned.
Right. Because if someone claims it, and it fits what you want to hear, it must be true.
Anyone else notice that you can apply most of those points to Christians by changing a few words?
For example:
Religiously - no. Because no other religion is accepted by his God except Christianity (1st Commandment)
From the email in the OP: “Therefore after much study and deliberation… perhaps we should be very suspicious of ALL MUSLIMS in this country.”
My suggestion for a reply:
Can a good Christian be a good American?
Theologically - no. Because his allegiance is to God and to Christ.
Religiously - no. Because no other religion is accepted by his God except Christianity (John 14:6)
Scripturally - no. Because his allegiance is to Jesus Christ and the bible
Geographically - no. Because his allegiance is to Rome (if Catholic)
Socially - no. Because his allegiance to Christ forbids him to make friends with Moslems or Jews or homosexuals or dark-skinned people (all damned by God.)
Politically - no. Because he must submit to the priests and pastors (spiritual leaders), who teach Armaggedon and the annihilation of the world and Destruction of America by Satan, as a prelude to the Second Coming.
Domestically - no. Because he is instructed that celebacy is the highest form of spiritual life.
Intellectually - no. Because he cannot accept the American Constitution since he believes the bible to be the only valid document, and any ideas that conflict with the bible (such as allowing dark-skinned people to vote) are corrupt.
Philosophically - no. Because Christianity and the bible do not allow freedom of religion and expression (heretics are to be stoned or killed.)
Democracy and Christianity cannot co-exist. Every Christian government is either dictatorial or autocratic or otherwise unjust.
Spiritually - no. Because when we declare “all men are created equal” the Christian’s God holds that some men are saved and loved, and others are damned eternally.
I’m curious about the apparent attributions in the glurge from the OP’s mom. Are those referring to actual passages in the Quran, or did the author just make up some numbers so it looks like they’ve actually read the book?
Why is it I can see and hear a young boy singing when I read this post?
“The branch of the linden is leafy and green”
brown-shirt throws a Jewish store-owner to the ground
“The Rhine gives its gold to the sea.”
brown-shirt holds the store-owner’s arms while the other punches him
“But somewhere a glory awaits unseen.”
brown-shirt kicks the bleeding and helpless store-owner as he lays on the ground
*“Tomorrow belongs to me…” * 
Good idea. I shoulda thought of that.