Kamau Bell and Racist Five Year Olds

Great Debates
141

FWIW I heard him talk last night locally. My wife really wanted to go. His childhood best friend (from the Hyde Park neighborhood of Chicago) is a local independent bookseller in my neighborhood (a great store) and hosted it, part Bell up and talking, part him being interviewed and set up to tell stories by his friend. Of course promoting his book “The Awkward Thoughts of W. Kamau Bell.” A big crowd and a very friendly one. $33 got you entry and a copy of the book. (No you could not pay less and skip getting the book.)

Some part of what I heard last night is relevant to this conversation.

Started off fine with the concept that awkward questions and awkward conversations were the important ones to ask and to have.

But given that as a premise his friend later in the show asked him to tell one of his older bits, a version of what I was able to find to share here on YouTube here: how Whites on the Left often respond with “How do you know it was racism?” (and he throws in a funny body language) and compares it to being asked “How do you know it was pizza?”

Crowd thought it was funny, my wife thought it was funny, my friend and his wife thought it was funny.

But it came off as a bit hypocritical to me. “How do you know it was racism?” is an awkward question and you are promoting that we all not be afraid to ask those awkward questions and have those awkward conversations. But then you object to them being asked?

As far as the story of this thread goes I get it in the term that LHOD puts it. The White kids are not being racist, they have no racist intent, they are just curious and normal kids pointing out, exploring, and commenting on that which is different, but the fact is that there is still a racist impact. That is much of the point of the concept of systemic racism. One can be part of behaviors that in aggregate have sometimes significant racist impacts without having racist intents, racist thoughts, and sometimes not even any implicit biases. Not realizing that one is cluelessly part of causing those impacts.

But I do think that Bell makes the point poorly and is a bit of a hypocrite.

142

No he doesn’t. Because he said he wanted to. That specifically and directly refutes that he does.

It’s as obvious as pizza.

Regards,
Shodan

143

I suspect he does but I cannot find that in the NPR link. A little help for those of us as obtuse as pizza?

144

The back and forth with Shodan can be moved here for anyone interested:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=825472

145

I have responded in the same thread. Trigger warning: it’s in the Pit, and I do say “fuck”.

Regards,
Shodan

146

Wow, there we go folks. The bar of non-racism has been set by Acsenray, it appears to be unrealistically high and…as we all know, white men can’t jump.

147

I don’t know what you mean by “unrealistically high.” Because I’m pretty clearly saying that white Americans have no business saying that they’re not racist. Their entire lives are soaked, steeped, and simmered in a multi-generational pot of social, commercial, legal, and institutional racism.

And that’s not a criticism of white people, it’s just a fact. The criticism comes in when a white person wants the “But I’m not a racist” certification. No, you can’t have it. Nobody can. Dealing with racism today means constant questioning of your decisions, your motives (conscious and unconscious), your privileges, etc. And that’s not just white people, it’s everybody.

What makes white Americans different from non-white Americans today is that they are the ones who seek the “But I’m not a racist” status" while still enjoying the benefits of historical and ongoing racism. They want the “Not a racist” certification and point to others as being the problem.

I have no interest in white folks who want to be assured that they’re “not racist.” They’re all racist. We’re all racist. They key to confronting racism has nothing to do with achieving a status of being “not racist.” White folks need to accept that racism permeates their lives and their children’s lives thoroughly. Everything they have, everything they have achieved, everything they look forward to, everything they take satisfaction in, all of it has some stain of racism on it.

This phase of fighting racism might actually be harder than all the progress made in the 19th and 20th centuries, because the situation was so dire then that the absolute worst manifestations of racism could be easily identified and dealt with—slavery, lynching, racism written into the law, etc. All that is certainly a series of important victories, but not a cause for self-satisfaction or rest.

When it comes to race, white folks have to start accepting that they have no business seeking assurance that “I’m not racist, though, am I?,” that if they want to do something positive in terms of racism that they will have to accept a level of discomfort, uncertainty, and dissatisfaction regarding race. Because you can bet that non-white Americans have no choice but to live in a constant stew of discomfort, uncertainty, and dissatisfaction regarding race day-in and day-out.

And just like parents of five-year-old black kids have to start thinking about when and how to have “the talk” about racism, parents of five-year-old white kids should be going through that same difficult decision-making.

Black folks have no choice but to figure out how to deal with racism from every direction every day and teach their kids as well. If white folks want to be a positive force with respect to racism, they will have to accept that they are the beneficiaries of racism and that they need to figure out how to deal with it every day and teach their kids about it too.

148

Great post, Ascenray.

149

Sounds so broad as to be meaningless.

150

Lumping those who by the nature of society have not suffered structural discrimination into the same group as those who take active racist actions and have explicit racist beliefs seems to me to me not a very useful approach, and if anything is more likely to be counterproductive.

If you want well-intended people to consider (and thus perhaps do something about) how they might be, despite their conscious/explicit beliefs, unknowingly complicit in systems and group level behaviors that in aggregate have racist impacts, the poorest approach forward is to lump them with alt-Right dirtbag haters.

If want to actually effect change then having “no interest” in those who are the lowest hanging fruit to pick is just dumb, even if it feels good to say it. IMHO.

151

You are part of the problem Acsenray, you don’t fight racism by preaching your own.
The “unrealistically high” part is by branding someone a racist until they can actively prove to you their worth. in your words…

That is not a standard that any reasonable person can live up to and you guarantee that everyone will fail. I prefer to look for tolerance, understanding and good intentions on all sides rather than guilty until proven innocent.

152

That’s the point, I think – most people will fail at a goal of never saying or doing anything racist… but that’s okay, in a sense – that’s an unachievable goal. The goal should be to improve one’s understanding of racism, to oppose racism whenever witnessed, to avoid saying or doing racist things, etc. Sometimes we won’t meet that goal, but good people will continue to try, and a failure can be used as a lesson to improve one’s self.

It’s the same as saying no one is 100% a good person – everyone does bad things sometimes, by mistake or otherwise. But good people continue to try being good and avoid doing bad things.

If we try and pretend that racism (or other forms of bigotry) aren’t present in so many aspects of society, and very often to the inherent and unconscious benefit of straight white males, then we’re missing a whole lot of opportunities to both improve ourselves and improve society, even if it’s in a tiny way.

The best I’ll say about myself is that I strive to oppose racism, and to not say or do racist things, and I’m sure I fail sometimes.

153

No, you’re still stuck in status-seeking mode. There is no “until.” We are all racist. I am racist, you are racist. There is no “I am not a racist” status that can be achieved. No one has to prove anything to me, because there is nothing to be proven.

See, you’re still trying to compare yourself to the “real racists.” You’re still seeking a status that marks you as one of the good guys. There is no such status to be achieved. What makes you a good guy is not what you are but what you do, and it’s what you do now, and five minutes from now, and a day from now, and a year from now.

Every interaction, every decision, each one tests you continuously, and you should be conscious of that. Sometimes you will fail. Perhaps you will fail often. But what makes you one of the good guys is that continuous effort, that constant self-examination. There is no point at which any of us will have achieved a status that makes it okay for us to sit back and think “I’m not a racist; my motives are pure.”

You’re still thinking that I’m setting a standard for you to achieve the goal of being “non racist.”

I’m not. I’m telling you that that is a false goal.

I’m not demanding that anyone prove his or her worth to me. What I’m demanding is the recognition that in our society, no person and no action and no situation and no interaction and no decision exists free of the stain of racism.

Yes, virulent racists are bad, they’re much worse, they’re horrible people. But that should be no source of comfort to you. You don’t get to measure yourself against them.

There’s nothing you can do to reach the status of “not a racist,” but that’s not even the important part. The important part is that you shouldn’t think of that as your goal.

The goal of “I’m not a racist” is entirely self-serving. Its sole purpose is to absolve yourself, to make you feel comfortable with yourself and what you have in life. It does nothing to counter racism in our society. All it does is let you say “Well, I’m not like X, I’m one of the good ones.”

The only person that helps is you, to clear your cognitive dissonance. It’s selfish and self-serving and creates the false idea of a personal status that can be achieved that will allow you to stop questioning yourself.

Yes, you will fail to achieve the status of “I’m not a racist,” but the point is that that is a false goal. Forget that goal. It doesn’t exist.

The goal that should concern you is not “I’m not racist” but rather “what am I doing to fight racism, especially my own racism at every possible point at which racism my be playing a role in my decisions or actions?”

154

I’m not the one seeking to label people. You are making the claim that we are all racist. I assume that applies equally to all colours and creeds? If so, how have you defined it?

Personally I think you have just defined the term “racism” to be utterly meaningless and stripped it of any power at all. I think your hyperbolic statements are damaging to the cause of racial harmony and equality. The subtext of what you are saying to those on the end of racism is “watch our for any hint of it from whitey…it is there because we’ve already decided they are guilty, they can’t help it it is in their nature…just waiting to bubble up. So leap on any word or gesture out of place and don’t let them get away with it”.

My own “racism” has been decided for me…thanks…and apparently my good intentions are irrelevant…thanks again. Is it the same for sexism and homophobia too because if I’m going to get a suitable badge made I may as well get a 3-for-2 offer.

155

No, what I am saying is that racist is not a status issue. I’m saying that it is related to actions. At any time, anyone can do something that is racist. The difference comes in how one approaches those decisions and how one considers it, and how often the resulting action is or is not a racist action. There is no “non-racist” status that will guarantee that all your actions will be non-racist. What matters is the decisions one makes on a moment-by-moment basis, not whether one has achieved “I am not a racist” status."

Yes, your intentions are irrelevant. Everyone’s intentions are irrelevant. The only thing that is relevant is your actual act.

Yes, it’s true for sexism and homophobia and disability-based bigotry as well.

See, you’re still making the mistake that this is a matter of status. It’s not. You don’t get to wear a badge. You don’t get to absolve yourself. You don’t get to absolve your children. The only thing you can do is be deliberate in your decisions and interactions and consider whether you are making a choice that has a racist result.

And I have no sympathy for your poor-me-what-can-I-do act. We are all the same in this. We all are continually making decisions and taking actions that may or may not be racist and we should all be aware of them rather than seeking the absolving status of “I’m not a racist.”

And, no, this is not a unique burden on white people. The difference is that it seems to be mostly white people who want to claim this absolving status. What is important is that racist actions on the part of white people have a disproportional effect, because white people still hold most of the power and authority in our society. When white people are racist, it affects people. White people’s racism is far more deadly than non-white people’s racism.

And, yes, it’s true of sexism and every other kind of bigotry. That’s why none of us should be seeking to absolve ourselves through claiming some kind of status, whether it’s “I’m not racist” or “I’m not sexist” or whatever. The way to be good is not to claim a status but to be conscious and self-critical.

156

Calling people’s actions racist on the basis of negative stereotypes of whatever racial group they belong to is, at the very least, ironic.

157

Right, right…but these go to eleven!

158

A million times this (this whole series of posts have been excellent). Minority people are not NPCs put on earth to provide individual white people a chance to test their character. Feeling that way means that when a minority wants to talk about their experiences with racism, white people get defensive, because they are trying to salvage the status of the potential racist. There’s like an unspoken rule that “better a hundred black people have their experiences minimized and their reactions dismissed than a single white person be unfairly maligned”.

I’m white, and I’ve worked primarily with minority students my entire career. When I was a young teacher, I really worried they might think I was racist. I worried that the central question of our relationship was whether they knew that I wasn’t, and I worked very hard to make sure that I never gave them the impression I was. It took a lot of reflection and maturing for me to realize how selfish that was, and how irrelevant. What my kids need from me is open and honest discussion about the role racism plays in their lives–they need me to acknowledge the realities they face, not play devil’s advocate for white people everywhere–not even for myself.

When white people think of “status absolution” as the main issue, as the climax of the story, they end up missing everything that’s actually important. There is some terrible irony that even when we are telling the story of the minority experience in America, we won’t even let minorites be the main character of that story.

And maybe that’s not the first lesson in race relations we should start with–maybe in some times and places “don’t be like the KKK, or you’re bad” is about the level the conversation should be at. But right here, right now is not that place–this is a discussion among pretty sophisticated people. So the yard stick is not “aren’t you setting a pretty high bar for generic white people? Might that not backfire?”. I’m not making this point to generic white people. I’m making this point to the people here, in this thread, right now, because we’ve been talking about these things for over a decade and I think this is the reason we often talk past each other.

159

Ah, are you are saying there is no such thing as a “racist” merely actions that can be interpreted as racist? If so then we can definitely agree that everyone has the capacity for racist acts. But that is trivially true and can be said about the capacity any human failing and, as I said previously, reduces you definition of “racist” to something meaningless.
Everyone has the capacity to steal, I don’t start off by assuming or labelling everyone a criminal…nor do you I expect.

A caring wife makes a error and administers a lethal dose of barbiturates to her husband as he lies suffering in pain. Another wife does the same with malice aforethought in order to cash in on life insurance.

Did intent matter? You are a relative of the dead man…did the intent matter?

so we are all sexists homophobes as well from the off? even women and gay people I assume?

You’ve already taken it upon yourself to try and give me a badge and a status, that of “racist”.(and luckily I’m now also sexist and homophobic too)

I have asked for no absolution, I don’t recognise the concept.

And if I tried my very, very hardest and someone still thinks I’ve committed a racist act do I get brownie points for trying so very hard? Because as you clearly stated, intent is irrelevant.

No-one asked for sympathy, least of all me. I’m fully at peace with my own failings and foibles.

And this sentence here is the only thing you really needed to say. It basically says “don’t be a dick”. You don’t need to wrap it up in self-analytical identity politics and prejudice to make it any more true.

Again, I’m not asking you tell me I’m not racist. Merely refrain from assuming I am without good reason to do so. My biggest complaint with your worldview is that it is fundamentally demeaning to all sides. I meet someone and I start from a position of inexact knowledge. So I judge them on what they say and what they do. What you are asking me to do is to prejudge them and make an assumption that they are racist, sexist and homophobic, that even if they are not showing any outward signs of it, it must still be there.
I think that is a terribly damaging and depressing view of the world. Thankfully it isn’t one I subscribe to.

160

How far back into American history do you think you have to go before it’s safe to assume that a given person’s actions and beliefs are shaped by white supremacy? When did that change?

Or do you maintain that there’s no such time? If so, then how about the same question but make it…belief in an eternal soul. Can you answer it then?