The NSA doesn’t kill people - we defend them. And you’re very welcome, I’m sure.
I do happen to know, but as Doors said, I can’t cite classified info to win a debate with a leftie dupe. Bottom line: I know that the best thing that can happen in this world is an Iraq with no Husseins in a position of power. And there is only one way left to get there: armed force. We’ve tried diplomacy, we’ve tried sanctions, and we’ve tried limited military action. All have been exhausted, and my point was this: those of you smug sumbitches that THINK you know what’s best DO NOT. And I have the picture in my mind of Neville Chamberlain standing on the tarmac waving his pathetic piece of paper over his head, proclaiming, “Peace in our time”…as his country was less than a year away from a deadly war of national survival.
Keep your happy snaps of you an’ the gang hangin’ at the Peace Rally in your scrap books, kids. You’ll get to look back at 'em in a few years in sheepish amazement, much as the appeasers of the 'Thirties did, when they were down to their last catch-phrase/soundbite: “Why die for Danzig?”. But at least your country will be safer, and your kids won’t be at quite such mortal peril, and they’ll be able to call their leaders “evil”, as he attempts to do the best he can to protect all of you from a truly evil madman.
It is my opinion that an offensive attack against Iraq is wrong. It is my opinion that different strategies to oust Saddam may not
have been fully explored. It is my opinion that war should ALWAYS be a last resort. It is my opinion that the US’s disregard for UN directives is pure arrogance. It is my opinion that the ‘reasons’ given by Bush et al to justify this war are not the complete story: it is economics rather than the threat posed by Saddam that is motivating the US. It is my opinion that my PM is NOT representing the wishes of most Australians when he commits our troops to the Middle East. It is my opinion that this (potential) war sucks serious arse.
These are my OPINIONS. You may try to change them by all means. I don’t claim to be right, they are only my opinions based upon my current world view and the evidence (or lack thereof) that is used to support Bush and his warmongering cronies. But don’t you dare tell me that I am WRONG, or that the other 9,999,999 who are marching in support of peace around the world this weekend that they have no right to their opinions.
Fuck you.
(and the fucking hamsters this afternoon…grrrrrrrr)
And Reeder, whatever you say. I don’t have to fabricate anything. I’ve made no attempt to fabricate anything. You can assume all you like. If it makes you feel good to think that I’m a liar, then have at it.
No. He really did not say anything that conclusively proved that we need to wage a war right this minute.
He laid out a number of assertions about Hussein’s capabilities, many, perhaps most, of which I believe. He provided no credible evidence that Iraq is currently supporting terrorists and he provided no reasons for anyone to believe that Hussein, who really wants to stay in power and look tough, would be so foolish as to launch a war that would bring immediate retaliation from the U.S.
All of this argues for increasing pressure to make it more difficult for him to actually rebuild his military to the point of actually attacking someone. None of which argues that only the destruction of his cities with a significant loss of life on both sides (with the attendant propaganda coup and recruiting posters for al Qaeda) is the only appropriate response to his current situation.
Convince the UN. Until then the USA just keeps looking more and more like a rogue state with WMD and aren’t rogue states with WMD supposed to be bad? I am sure President Bush said that.
All Colin Powell proved was that his staff can use powerpoint.
Bluesman Perhaps the NSA doesn’t assassinate, but defend us?? Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t the NSA run Echelon? You know what I’m talking about. The program where they spy on free American citizens?
Citing bad history, incompletely reported, does noit instill in me any confidence of your opinion. If you truly believe the mythology surrounding that event, I have to question your awareness of history–which would tend to impugn your ability to make current observations, accurately.
Give it up Airman- You might as well be talking to the wall. It just isn’t worth the rise in BP to get involved in an argument.
Nothing our leaders say makes a difference. Nothing the UN can say would make a difference. In fact, if Saddam himself came on a US tour and signed souvenier nukes for the kiddies, it wouldn’t make a difference.
Now if you don’t mind, I am going to go get a beer, and enjoy my freedom to do so.
And yet even that is anathema to the Europeans. I would be happy to see a peaceful resolution of this crisis, but the ball is in Saddam’s court. It’s up to him to avert war by complying with the UN resolutions.
Let’s see what the Middle East looks like 50 or 100 years from now; that will be the only way to judge whether U.S. military action was the right thing to do. God knows the U.S. has had a hand behind the scenes in destabilizing other regimes around the world; some of them weren’t exactly up to current human rights standards, but well, the ones that have replaced them weren’t great, either.
If the Middle East is a stable place to live 50 years from now, and undisputably due to U.S. actions, then I will by all means retract my opinion above. I hope you are open-minded enough to do the same if things go the other way.
In the meantime, I will give thanks in situations where I feel they are due, and this isn’t one of them. The current administration has zero credibility with me as far as foreign policy and civil rights issues are concerned, and if they can’t be bothered to address their widespread credibility problems in any kind of cohesive and non-condescending way, then screw them - they’ll just have to deal with the political fallout from that.
See, this self-deprecating attitude is unbecoming.
For what it’s worth, i believe that there are plenty of Americans (well-informed or otherwise) who honestly believe that going to war with Saddam Hussein is the best course not only for the US, but for world peace and prosperity. You may well be one of them.
You are, in my books at least, perfectly entitled to your opinion, and i’ll even concede that, as a military person, you are probably privy to some information that i don’t have. What really jacks me off, however, are some of the assumptions that you seem to make, such as:
a) the only knowledge worth a damn is US military knowledge
b) you not only have all the knowledge, but your interpetation of it is the only correct one
c) anti-war protestors know nothing, and so their actions must be based on either stupidity or some sort of nefarious intent towards the US. You can’t even seem to accept that they have good intentions, as i do about some pro-war people.
d) (this applies to Bluesman’s OP, rather than to Airman) not only do the the protestors know nothing, but Bluesman is also able to read their minds and know their “beliefs” about what their protests will accomplish
e) that, despite your inability to furnish the proof you claim you have (whether for security reasons, or whatever), everyone should simply take you at your word.
As i said, everyone is entitled to their opinions on this Board. You can proclaim them far and wide, and while i will argue with you about them, i will not question your right to have them. But when you start claiming that you have facts, then you need to pony up. If your privileged position within the American military means that you can’t support your “factual” assertions, maybe you shouldn’t bother making them.
And note that, in terms of direct factual evidence, i would no more believe a Board member who claimed to work for, say, the French government, and who said that he had evidence that Saddam was not a threat, but that for security reasons he couldn’t tell us what it was. Given my own opinions on the war, i might hope that what he said was true, but i like to think that i would still treat it as nothing more than hearsay until it was proved otherwise.
Also, the hostility to anti-war protestors often seems, to me at least, to shade dangerously close to making the argument that these people have no right to say the things they are saying. Of course, people don’t phrase it exactly that way because they don’t want to be seen bucking the First Amendment, but talk like Bluesman’s “unworthy reasons” seems to come close to an accusation of treason or something similar. Similarly (and again, Airman is not guilty of this, AFAIK) the accusations of anti-Americanism that are thrown around so blithely by some conservatives.
Finally, to add to tomndebb’s observations about Powell, i don’t think i’ve ever heard a more tenuous connection than the one made between Al Qaeda and Iraq after bin Laden’s most recent tape. Powell’s claims constituted wishful thinking at its most gratuitous.
Sigh…for the record. Bluesmanj is indeed a long time member of the USAF, and does work for NSA. I know this, because our family of five lives here in Fort Meade, MD, where we are barely getting by on an enlisted man’s salary.
I also know this, because I and his children don’t see much of him these days. This is because he is working very long hours working very hard to keep all of you safe, and free to post your opinions on whatever you want to post on, regardless of the facts at your command.
He is in fact privy to information that the general public is not. He is also allowed to say this in public, and not lose his job, so long as he does not post classified information. I know this, because I once did a job very similar to what he does.
He also is very very very frustrated when he sees people who do not have all the facts, and shape the facts they do have to fit their personal worldviews, protest against an action that will ultimately make the world safer for everybody. (Including Iraqis).
I know this, because he vents at length when he does come home.
He ain’t no liar, folks, and he is deeply dedicated to the defense of all Americans, regardless of their political leanings.
You may disagree with him, but ultimately, he deserves your thanks. He has mine.
Chamberlain, along with the ministers of France and Italy, signed away cravenly signed away Czech sovereignty over the Sudetenland in return for Hitler’s promise to annex no more land. Hitler broke that promise six months later. Any revisionist nonsense that Chamberlain was slyly buying time to build British trength to defend against attack may be dismissed.
I think that Israel should give up the West Bank to the Palestinians the day the Palestinians resolve to live in peace with Israel. In any event, Israel isn’t a dictatorship bent on invading its neighbors; on the contrary, its neighbors wish to destroy it.