Not my husband, Lucretia’s.
It’s interesting that you make this argument, gobear, given that in this thread you make what appears to be a defence of Bill O’Reilly’s right to lecture the son of someone who was killed in the WTC attacks.
I suppose that, in your moral universe, losing a loved one only counts if you have the right political viewpoint.
Lucretia’s husband then. My apologies for the confusion. The concern still stands.
I have one simple question that no anti-war person has ever answered with a remotely credible response:
What realistic alternatives are you proposing?
I would like the alternative and the positive result in Iraq that you think it will get. Until I hear that, I don’t think much of your position.
I’m waiting.
Oh, and kambuckta, while pissing and moaning about possible casualties and all that other stuff, you have missed, though it was pointed out to you twice, that you are adressing the wife of one of the men who might very well die in the upcoming war. So Australia sent troops, you seem to still be seated on your ass in Melbourne. You, sir, are a craven coward to talk that way.
Read it again. My sole contribution to that thread was
which was questioning the OP’s fairness.
Surely you’ll agree that throwing the possibility of her husband’s death into a woman’s face is pretty low?
Or maybe in your moral universe it’s just peachy.
For the time being, how about containment?
It seemed to work well enough for 50-odd years when every American city of significant size had a Soviet nuke with its name on it.
Diplomatic channels are apparently good enough for Bush when it comes to North Korea.
I believe war is wrong.
I believe the US is wrong to be pursuing this war. I believe Australia is wrong to be following the US into this war.
I don’t believe that people who signed up in peacetime to the military are some sort of perfect uberbeings who are entitled to opinions while the rest of us are not. If my partner were in the Australian military and leaving for the Gulf this week, I would still believe the war is wrong.
I’m not finding it credible either that the US military is sharing highly classified information with enlisted men.
I sincerely hope that Airman and Bluesman and any other military members of this board and indeed anybody going to the war comes home safely. But then I hope that nobody innocent in Iraq dies either.
Contain what? Tighter sanctions? The only people that hurts are Iraqi civilians. Contain terror? Sadaam supports terror every time he gives a check to the family of a suicide bomber. Contain WMD? He had 'em, refused to prove he destroyed them and stonewalls the inspectors. Why would he do this if he wasn’t hoping for a chance to use them at some point? Sorry, in order for “containment” to be a “realistic alternative” (which is all I asked for, remember) You gotta tell me what we are containing and how/why.
Let’s say the US government knows things that prove that unless we kill Iraqis, Saddam Hussein will kill us. I am not sure that that situation would justify any action on our part - I have a lot of respect for the volunteer human shields and would join myself if I thought it would make any difference. Anyway, we live in a democracy and we have a right to know that information so that we can make up our own minds as to what action it warrants. The behavior of the Bush administration really is typical of a dictatorship. Feeding us lies and then telling us they know what’s best. If revealing this information would undermine intelligence gathering operations, too bad - that’s the cost of living in a democracy. Can anyone fathom what kind of information could possibly exist that would be too dangerous to reveal? I mean, if they have photographs of nuclear weapons, why can’t they show them? Why instead are they relying on misinformation?
On a final note, I’d like to add that fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity. (One of the funnier slogans of the day.)
I would’ve thought the possibility of death would’ve been pretty apparent when one signs up for the armed forces, and wouldn’t need pointing out by me.
Yes, but if you’re so uptight about throwing death in the face of a grieving or worried relative, why wasn’t your first concern in that other thread Bill O’Reilly’s willingness to do exactly that? After all, that’s essentially the issue that the OP in that thread was addressing. If you’ll remember, the main rant was:
Doesn’t sound too different from your abuse of kambuckta, does it?
I’m not saying that you have to agree with the anti-war guy, but O’Reilly’s willingness to assert what the guy’s father would/should have wanted is very similar, in my opinion, to the type of thing that you’re accusing kambuckta of. You totally ignored the issue raised by the OP in that thread, and instead chose to suggest, with no evidence whatsoever, that the OP was being somehow politically biased. At the very least, i think it was reasonable to infer from this that you had no problem with O’Reilly’s tactics. After all, you never bothered to say that there was anything wrong with them in a thread devoted specifically to that topic.
And with regard to kambuckta’s comments, i really don’t see much support for your assertion that he threw the possibility of her husband’s death into Lucretia’s face. You have to read his post with at half your mind closed to get that sort of malice out of it, in my opinion. It seemed to me that kambuckta was simply suggesting that the families of other service people might feel differently, not that he was ridiculing Lucretia’s fears. If you have some source that i don’t know about which says that every single family of a service person supports the decision to go to war, i’d be happy to hear it.
Hussein’s obviously contained now. He’s not going to make the slightest move that would justify a military reaction, one that even the U.N. would OK.
Continue with the inspections. Ad infinitum or ad nauseam, if you prefer. If Hussein throws out the inspectors, we will pick up more votes in the UN to take action. (Probably not France and Germany, but enough to make any actual action more defensible in the Arab world.) There is no evidence that Hussein would ever launch an attack unless he believed he would win. He never has. With the U.S. fully poised to strike with little or no provocation, there is no reason to believe that he is a genuine threat to anyone other than the Iraqis.
Complaints of “how long” are irrelevant. “How long” have we tolerated Kim Jung Il and his father? (And North Korea, at least, has both the technology to strike the U.S. and a leader with the demonstrated madness to act regardless of consequences.) “How long” have we tolerated a nuclear Pakistan? “How long” have we tolerated an apparently nuclear South Africa? “How long” did we tolerate the Soviet Union?
To justify a war to me, you need to provide a reasonable premise for a clear, imminent, and probable threat. As long as Hussein plays his games, there is no reason to believe that he would initiate an attack against a superior force. He wants to stay in power. Attacking the U.S. guarantees a loss of power and, probably, his death.
I’ll turn your question around: what is gained by attacking, now, and providing al Qaeda (which generally hates the secular Ba’ath regime as fiercely as it hates the Saud family) with all sorts of “crusade” propaganda to recruit more suicide bombers?
Huh? What world do you live in? We do nothing and he’s going to go right on paying terrorists, killing his own civilians and developing deadlier WMD. The U.N dosen’t need any further “excuse” for war, he’s already violated the terms of their sanctions. What the hell are you talking about?
Uh, Stoid was the OP, so yes it was politically biased. In any event, Kambucta is risking nothing by running his mouth, safe and happy at the bottom of the planet. He is presuming to tell Lucretia about matters that she is far more knowlegeable about than he/she. And yes, he was ridiculing her fears, which is despicable, IMO. YMMV.
Sort of like our trading partner China, you mean?
You admit that both Airman and Bluesman may have information, and they are speaking out about their opinions based on this evidence. Again, it is no surprise that they can’t share classified evidence, and you asking for it is disenguenous. They cannot and will not pony it up just to win a debate on a message board. I did not get in this to throw insults at you and your opinions, as it seems that you need more evidence to back a war. You are not alone in this thought. Still at the same time I have a huge problem with disparaging men and women in the military.
Well, China’s another problem we’ll have to sort out eventually, but I had no idea they were paying money to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers. Cite? In re WMD’s China has been a member of the nuclear club for some decades now. And yes, Tiananmen Square was horrible and the repression of Falun Gong is wrong.
I only just noticed this:
then
then
Well, first of all, there’s plenty of evidence to suggest that those who make policy in Israel are happy to destroy Palestine with a type of death-by-a-thousand-cuts policy.
Secondly, i always love it when people push Saddam’s violation of UN resolutions as a reason to invade. When reminded of the fact that the two countries who have violated the most such resolutions are, in order:
-
Israel
-
Turkey
they quickly turn the focus of their argument in another direction.
Again, I will add with emphasis this time: YOU ARE A COMPLETE FUCKING MORON GOBEAR. While you proclaim that I am safe and happy at the bottom of the planet, has it occurred to you that I might have fears for the safety of my family? That John Howard has dragged us into a war that not only do I not agree with but might threaten our very lives? Are you such a dickwad that you don’t appreciate that WE are the biggest arse-lickers of US policy ever? And as such, we are probably equal or greater targets than your good self?
Go get severely fucked gobear.
Oh, and I’m a sheila, not a bloke…just for future reference OK?