This isn’t the Times, it’s New York Magazine.
Among other things, potential. If the guy in question was to be properly motivated, do we know that he would always be worthless? Who knows, he could be a talented artist, writer, or scientist. Or maybe not. But the have no way to tell.
If this person was your father, brother, or son, would you have a different stance?
Actually, Joe and Sally have the cognitive wherewithal to read or listen and understand subtext. They’re just not given credit for that most of the time. I read that article, I see that photograph and lo and behold- a man taking advantage of the system. Is he presented as a man symbolic if thousands? Hundreds? Dozens? He is not. He’s presented as one of just a few ( three, yes? ) who have abused the system to such a rarified degree.
The public gets it, and is allowed to be incensed even if it isn’t a pandemic problem.
Go easy on poor Dave. He’s just feeling his oats cause he got away with just a one month suspension. He knows not what he sayeth.
Cartooniverse
Please don’t stereotype conservatives. I am pretty conservative, and I have no problem with society helping people who cannot help themselves…even if it means for the rest of their lives. My problem is with people who CAN help themselves, or worse, with programs that encourage people to NOT help themselves, even if they can. I don’t know which situation this one is, but somebody should try to find out, so the guy can either get the help he needs, or get a job.
OK-could I see your work? I thought it was 4/300 or 300 divided by 4…oops, never mind.
See, I told you I was bad in math. I rest my case.
As to inherant worth–that’s a slippery slope indeed. Who is to say with proper care and attention that this man couldn’t be a valuable asset to society? Is Brittany Spears a valued asset to society? Apparently, yes, but I don’t think so. So, who decides who lives or dies? Brittany or refugee? Let’s throw them in a lion pit and see who survives. :rolleyes:
Another thing worth mentioning is we don’t really know the ages or health disposition of the other three evacuees. One guy that is mentioned is a diabetic.
You’re a parasite if you’re too depressed to work, but a valuable human being if you don’t have a brain?
Game, set and match.
Hehe. I knew I was gonna get plowed for this one, I’ve alredy been called “warped”, I wonder what’s next? In any event, I meant this more as a great debate type question, in fact I debated starting a thread in GD as I was typing my previous post, but I was pressed for time and just posted it here. That was probably a mistake, I’m going to start a GD thread posthaste. I’ll link it here after it’s posted. I will reply to what some of you have said there.
Everybody is tempted to think this way occasionally. Unfortunately, it is an irredeemably inhuman and cynical way to think. Whenever I’m tempted to give up on people like the Katrina victim in the article, I think of a photo I have on my wall at home: this one. It’s a rather famous photo of a prison yard in Louisiana, full of murderers, thieves, rapists, and the dregs of society. One could possibly argue that, given the times, some of these men may have been railroaded or innocent, but there is no doubt that most of them were guilty as sin, and doubtless “useless” by your reckoning.
However, see the guy standing under the left window, without a hat? He was convicted of murder and assault, and was perfectly guilty. He’s also Huddie Ledbetter, better known as Leadbelly, possibly the greatest exponent of black American folk music of the 20th century. He was a parasite. A social leech. Useless. But he was enormously talented, and one of the greatest musicians this country has ever seen. All it took was a fellow named Alan Lomax to see his titanic potential and encourage him to realize it.
Whenever I think of a person as useless, I think of that photo, and I realize that I have no way of truly knowing what potential a person has, and I have no right to even think I am in any way qualified to judge that he “be shot in the back of the head,” and by God, neither do you.
My dad is a welfare caseworker and deals with all kinds of people on welfare, food stamps, and SSI, not just MI folks.
Also, Tris, you might want to let up on stereotyping the mentally ill too.
OK total hijack but IMO just cuz a guy can stamp out some pretty music does not excuse murder. Murder is the worst crime someone can commit and if it were up to me he would be shot in the back of the head. It’s only the inherent classism and racism of the state that keeps me from being pro-death penalty. When you’re listening to his tunes, try to think about the person he killed, and how they’ll never hear anything again.
BTW the second quoted thing in the above post was by Ogre, sorry for not marking the name.
I may be mistaken, but I think that Ogre was pointing out that, had Leadbelly’s potential been realized sooner, he might not have done the horrible things he did. That may or may not be true, but I didn’t get the impression that Ogre was trying to say that the music in any way diminished the man’s crimes.
I agree with most of your post, but I have an issue with this. The hopeless of society serve us by being our cannon fodder? That’s pretty dehumanizing. Suppose we were to somehow eliminate the predators. Would you then be OK with executing the unproductive?
Perhaps. It’s a difficult issue. Does Wagner’s music make up for the fact that he was an Antisemite? Does the fact that Leadbelly’s music (and that he was legally pardoned for his crimes) almost singlehandedly popularized black folk music, and therefore led to not only the explosion of Blues and Rock and Roll, but most other forms of American folk music, and changed every aspect of music all over the world, make up for his crimes?
Dunno, and it’s beside the point of the argument anyway.
I understand the concept of “nothing excuses murder” although I would like to point out that Ogre did not seem to be excusing murder rather he seemed to be suggesting that the murderer may have some qualities that makes him valuable as well. Not trying to compare various worths and all.
A position I agree w/.
I guess I’d ask you to think about the various scenarios your point would make - an accidental death where one was careless, but had no intent to kill, the person who died is just as dead, and still cannot hear music. the murderer of Jeffrey Dahmer, Jeff’s dead, can’t hear music etc. Certainly there are those (and apparently you are one, except for the whole classism/racism stuff) who believed that he should have been executed - what then for the guy who gave you what you thought should have happened?
In any event, the point that was being made was not that the murder was ‘excused’ in any way, but that the worth of a human being is not so easily quantified.
Almost. What I’m saying is more like, regardless of what Leadbelly did personally, his music, and the music he inspired and enabled after him, stands on its own as an absolute good. It’s a seperate entity, but one that could not be realized without the man himself. A conundrum, that something so perfect could come from someone so deeply and thoroughly flawed…but that’s the basic truth. We’re all flawed, and we all (well, most of us) have enormous potential that can usually be harvested…therefore, how do we judge? How do we say that the lazy asshole bum living off the government dole in NYC is absolutely worthless, and, in Dave’s words, should be shot?
We don’t. It’s ridiculous.
Do you know who he killed? Do you know why it happened? Do you know, most importantly, when and where it happened, and why that is significant in attempting to determine the nature of the crime? For that matter, do you know anything about Leadbelly at all besides what you’ve read in this thread? And lastly, do you think you know enough to so cavalierly decide wether or not this man deserved to be “shot in the back of the head?”
And, incidentally, where has anyone in this thread “excused murder”?
Two very inter-related reasons:
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Humans, and other social animals, are successful in part because they protect even the least valuable of their clan; it’s good for a social animal to have that instinct.
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You never know what value a person might have tomorrow.
And I think most people have answered your question honestly. You’re going to get the same kinds of answers if you do create the thread in GD.
I think so too. As to the GD thread, well, let’s find out, shall we?