I was just contemplating what I would do if I had a child that wanted to join Scouts or Brownies/Guides. I was a Brownie and Guide (for 2 years) and I wasn’t even aware of any discrimination practises, but then again, that was during the 80s and I was a kid, so it wasn’t as much on most people’s radars as it is now. I remember being uncomfortable with the “god” parts of the prayers and promises… I was allowed to learn about all religions growing up, and I never was religious. I usually mumbled something “I promise, to do my duty to mumble and my country” or whatever the wording was.
I just looked up the Canadian Forces Cadets program, but it is for older kids, ages 12-18. It actually looks like it could have been a lot of fun, though way more physically demanding than Scouts/Guides. The Canadian Forces have an open service policy for homosexuals, and it is a secular service. No registration fees, no dues, no requirement other than participating in fundraising (of course!), no obligation to any length of time or to join the Armed Forces later on, and kids can learn about sea, air and land activities. Without looking into it in more detail, it sounds like a good alternative, at least for older kids. What to do with the 6-12 year olds, though, I don’t know. http://www.cadets.ca/intro_e.asp
Thing is, in the USA with their DADT policy, even if they have something similar, it isn’t quite the same, is it?
Somewhat of a dilemma… I think I’m glad I don’t have kids and don’t really have to think about it!
I was not aware that the Canadian Scouts/Guides discriminated against gays… do they? It seems to me that that would be a lot harder to do in Canada, given that gay marriage is legal in Canada and all.
Perhaps, as stated in the OP, fessie’s problem has more to do with the fact that it’s “A DISCRIMINATORY ORGANIZATION.” Rather than just an affront over religion. And you know, some people choose to change things by not participating. Kind of hitting a big conglomerate where it hurts… in the wallet.
At the time, they were required to attend. In the ten years that the case has wound through the courts, the policy has changed, mainly due to time and teaching concerns.
BSA most certainly DOES push a religious element. Beginning as early as Tiger Cub the literature explicitly states that spirituality is necessary to the formation of a good, sound kid. Judeo-Christian spiriuality? Not necessarily, but the literature defaults to verbiage common to that tradition.
There is a surprising degree of flexibility in how that plays out. Best way to control it is to participate in the pack as a leader. I think officially BSA doesn’t like fags, but on the local level your leadership can choose to rebel and let them come along on the camping trips with the moral boys. The program has a lot of good stuff in it for kids, it’d be a shame to keep your kids out just because you’re afraid they won’t get to mix with queers and atheists.
But still, the BSA shouldn’t be able to require any time away from class–that just means that the school administration is either filled with pussies or shortsighted biggots
What the hell are you going on about here? Is your thinking always this muddled, or are you drunk? Or are you just plain stupid? What does any of this have to do with George Bush? Why should an organization that officially discriminates against atheists and gay people be permitted to recruit or hold meetings in our public schools? Why is my tax money thus going to support an organization like this, which wouldn’t even have me as a member?
The Scouts may not endorse one religion over another, but they explicitly declare that atheists are not fit to be members:
(From here, quote taken from Wikipedia as the Scouts’ legal issues website seems to be experiencing trouble right now.)
The Scouts have kicked out atheists because of their opinions. Further, they officially don’t permit gay people to be members (either as scouts or as adult members of the organization.) They’ve kicked gay people out quite a number of times - in one case, because they found a copy of a high-ranking employee’s bill from a gay resort.
Oh, you can be gay and be in Boy Scouts–as long as you never tell anyone and stay firmly in your closet. My ex was a Scout, Order of the Arrow, adult leader, etc., so I got to know a lot of scouts. A good friend of his from his teen years, also involved in Scouts to every degree including troop leader for many years (and an incredibly popular one at that–if he had every kid who wanted to join his troop the guy would’ve had a small village to contend with!) had to resign from Scouts because he had the effrontery to wish to be upfront about the man he loves. Then there’s the ingrained God thing, and the fact that the BSA and GSA flatly refuse to combine forces (which would reduce significantly the redundant expenditures and duplicated resources–along with redundant management positions which I assume is the big objection) to form one gender neutral scouting group and what you have is one big monument to exclusionism.
How can one be Trustworthy if one is forced to deny one’s essential character in order to be a Scout?
How can one be Brave and not stand up for one’s beliefs or lack thereof?
The whole organization is kind of ugly when you get into what they stand for and the weaselly way they force people to conform and I totally understand a parent’s reluctance to support them.
Sorry my link wasn’t more informative, I’d read a couple of stories before deciding to post a quick OP – and I’m glad to learn that the school district in question changed its policy to make attendance optional in the ten years since the suit was first filed. I hope other districts have done the same.
Personally, I strongly dislike corporate influence in schools, period. Pepsi in the lunchrooms, “Channel One” news feeds, Boy Scouts pitching over lunch – it’s a bad idea. School’s where kids need to learn critical thinking and skepticism, and should not be yet another venue for pitching products.
Interesting, too, to read that troops vary widely in how they apply BSA policies - I don’t know if that means it’s unfair to criticize the locals for what’s being done on the national level, or if the locals are the forefront of change.
I was never in the Scouts; I gather you were. Did y’all sit around the campfire hitting yourselves in the heads with hammers or lot or what?
Let me see if I’m following here:
The Boy Scouts aren’t discriminatory because they don’t require belief in “God with a capital G”, which would be discriminatory because “God with a capital G” refers specifically to the Christian God. The Scouts are thus no more discriminatory than the Pledge of Allegiance, which of course includes “God with a Capital G” (it’s sure as fuck not written “one Nation under god”), which by your logic means that the Pledge of Allegiance and the National Motto essentially say “One Nation under Jesus Christ” and “In Jesus Christ We Trust”. And when BSA says that it “maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God” then, according to you (because they write God with a capital G) this should really be parsed as “no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to Jesus Christ”.
Or maybe your statement “‘God’ with a capital G refers to a specific deity, Scouting does not require members be Christian” is just a random, hammer-induced non sequitur. Who the fuck said the Boy Scouts require their members to be Christian? According to the Boy Scouts, Christians, Jews, Muslims, and Hindus can all be good citizens–but not atheists.
I was a Brownie and Girl Guide as a child in Canada, and my husband was only a few badges short of becoming an Eagle Scout here in America. We allowed our son (against our better judgement) to be a Boy Scout for one season only, and that was due to that fact that there were no children his age in our neighbourhood for him to play with. When we withdrew him, we xplained to him exactly why we withdrew him. This was as a nine-year-old boy, and he completely understood.
So if your kid asks WHY, point out to him your gay friends, and tell them that the Boy Scouts don’t that they’re good enough; and that you don’t think the BSA is good enough for your family.
Ultimately any such organization is at the mercy of “the local level.”
Take my pack, for instance. It’s got some pretty liberal and laid back leadership. We do the flag ceremonies and community involvement stuff because we feel it’s good to give the kids a sense of responsibility and accountability to and for their community. And since our community is part of the USA, it makes sense to foster a sense of duty to THAT organization as well. And no, it does NOT mean blindly waving the flag and giving a smiling “Heil Bush” at every opportunity.
My pack is also stuffed with kids from reasonably wealthy families. If BSA decided they wanted to give us a good probing to ferret out fags and atheists, they’d find themselves in a very well-funded and outspoken hornet’s nest of horrible publicity. They don’t want that. Sure it’s technically a private organization and they have the right monitor their membership…but every pack they destroy creates another potential for a rival group with more a moderate and modern philosophy. Campfire, as I understand it, already is such an organization but it’s been having trouble–not sure why. Probably lack of good ambitious leadership. Or maybe God doesn’t like them so much.
Do they not allow gays to join or is it that they don’t allow gay adults to be Scout Leaders? Do you get kicked out of the Scouts if you come out? Since most guys join pre-puberty, I susptect many gays don’t even know they’re gay yet.
Man, once again I’m just so glad I belong to the co-ed, don’t-really-give-a-crap-about-what-religion-people-are-although-technically-I-suppose-we-should-teach-kids-about-their-religion-it’s-kind-of-written-in-the-tenements-I-guess, gay-or-straight?-who-cares-now-knowing-how-to-handle-a-group-of-hyperenergetic-9-year-olds-that’s-a-different-story Guides and Scouts of Finland. It seems to make everything so much easier.
From what the Wikipedia page says, yeah, they’ll kick out both scouts and leaders who are gay. Even if scouts join pre-puberty, they generally continue to be members afterwards.
I bet it varies from troop to troop, though. From what I remember, it isn’t all that centralized. Who knows, though-- maybe these days they send someone with really good gaydar out from headquarters every few months to smoke 'em out!
I suspect that this is one reason why there appears to be a disconnect between the position of Bobotheoptimist and the rest of us. It appears that his particular troop, (perhaps even his council) is fairly tolerant.
When I was in Scouts in the early 1960s, my troop was sponsored by the local Catholic parish. We attended a number of church functions, including weekend retreats. When we went camping, the Methodist kid was given the option of either coming along with us or being dropped off at a local Methodist church for their services. Surprisingly (for that period) we also had a kid who was openly atheist. I do not recall any leader hassling him or him mentioning any grief for his position. When we were on campouts, on Sunday morning he was hauled into town with the rest of us when we went to mass, (rather than leaving a 12-year-old alone at a campsite 150 miles from home), but he was not compelled to come into the church or participate in the services. If a priest came out to celebrate mass at the campsite, the kid was expected to refrain from pulling any early teen boy pranks during mass, but he was not expected to attend.
If Bobotheoptimist’s troop, or even council, demonstrates this sort of tolerance for divergent beliefs, I can see why it would appear to him that the Scouts were not the hostile organization that the rest of us perceive.
Unfortunately, the BSA has made it an issue to expel atheists and homosexuals and has gone to court to protect their right to do so. While I hope that Bobotheoptimist’s group continues to practice a more open-minded brand of Scouting, I also hope that the regional leaders do not discover what his group is doing, lest his council or troop suffer the hassle of being told to expel members. (If Scouting is going to continue, I would just as soon see some tolerance displayed so that tomorrow’s leaders display a bit more openmindedness.)
Regardless how his troop is managed, however, it is pretty clear from the official positions of the national organization which has gone to court to enforce bans on atheist participation that tolerance is strictly a local virtue.
