Kerry Christmas 1968

I was just reading one of the internet news sources yesterday about psychiatric studies with veterans that show how their memories of events and the specifics change over time. The vets were interviewed at six year intervals and the descriptions of events changed to include events that they had heard about only second hand. They also tended to increase the value of their own participation.

When they were confronted with their own contradictions, often they were bewildered and asked which account was the true one. The researcher would respond, “I don’t know. I wasn’t there.”

Researchers do believe that early accounts are more likely to be the most accurate.

All of this might explain why people can have contradictory recollections of events and not be lying. Maybe John Kerry doesn’t have perfect recall of events and was unaware that his memories might be flawed. (People can be very stubborn about what they think they remember.) This could also explain why the SBVT have recollections which conflict with naval records and the recollections of others who were involved. And the two differing groups of vets have reenforced each others beliefs.

So maybe no one is lying about what happened in Vietnam and Cambodia.

The matter of whether Kerry lied about Christmas Eve in Cambodia must be of importance for people who are dedicated to truth. Even as protesters in New York today carry banners reading ‘Bush: liar, bigot, moron’, we are reminded that this election is very largely about who can be trusted.

If Kerry chose to move himself a few miles across the border when he decided to recount his Indochinese adventures in the political arena, so that he could ridicule the then US president for political advantage, then it is quite reasonable for him to be called out for so doing now, as he seeks that same political office.

I have to ask. You serious? Is this like really droll satire, or you mean to ask the question? Kerry “chose to move” himself (and presumably several other persons involved, US Navy being a group-oriented activity, for the most part…) “across the border” to lend momentary plausibility to the story he was busily concocting?

If he “chose to move” himself, how did he manage the compliance and consent of the US Navy, whom, we are strenuously given to understand, would most certainly not comply and consent? In your scenario of skullduggery, is Kerry under orders, or is he indulging in “black ops” of his own devising?

If he was ordered to “move himself a few miles across the border” then your contention vaporizes to methane. If he did go across, but was not ordered across, neither officially or under clandestine orders, then he should have a whole differant problem explaining himself.

There is something else.

In the other thread, I believe it was Shayna who posted a list of comments by Kerry’s superior officers, made at the time.

One of those commends his conduct in combat over Christmas 1968. 2 Things: Obviously he was in some sort of combat activity during that time.

Secondly and more importantly, it is clear that by ‘Christmas’ he was referring to a time period and not confining himself to the very day. Might not Kerry have remembered a period of a few days, or weeks as ‘Christmas’? He might.

Take this with the distance in time and you are left with 4 options:

1: Kerry was in Cambodia on Christmas day 1968
2: Kerry was in C during the Christmas period 1968-69
3: Kerry was in C sometime but has misremembered the date
4: Kerry is lying, he was never in C anywhere near the relevant time.

Leaving aside (1) I see nothing to persuade me that any of 2, 3 or 4 is substantially more likely than the other. Although in honesty I prefer human error over conspiracy.

So given the options and the incomplete evidence I cannot prefer one option over any other. This means I cannot believe Kerry was lying. It is an open question.

Here’s the relevant quote:

Well, dang. I was in Vietnam during Christmas of 1968 as well, but I’ll be darned if I can remember anything about it, who I was with, what I was doing, although I’m fairly certain I spent it in a bunker. It’s a stupid accusation, along the lines of “how much danger were you in?” If he was in Cambodia on Christmas or two weeks after or a month before, is it really relevant? Is the fact that he can’t remember the exact dates that he was on a particular part of that stinking river in that stinking shithole in a stinking war that he actually went to meaningful in any way other than in the petty minds of those who can’t seem to find any redeeming qualities in their own candidate?

Fred Kaplan’s piece in Slate on this:

So Chefguy, were you one of those guys who "raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam.”

Okay perhaps if Kerry is correct. Blaming it on LBJ? Why didn’t you fuckin say something?

Kerry’s experience in Cambodia in Christmas 1968 was “seared” in him. My memory of where I wsa when I heard the news that Robert Kennedy had been killed earlier the same year is also seared in me. These memories are very accurate indeed. I think we should take Kerry at his word on this.

But what did he mean by ‘Christmas’?

Christmas day? Christmas Eve? The Christmas Truce? The Christmas season?

It’s the when, not the what.

Kerry himself specified in 1979 that he spent Christmas Eve of 1968 five miles inside Cambodia. This is specific stuff. It also provides an emotive context for his diatribe against Nixon and the Republicans. His purpose was to create an emotion-commotion by juxtaposing the traditional image of Christmas (peace and goodwill) with a nightmare image, in which America’s punch-drunk allies who were not even Christian were subverting everything that Christmas stood for. But, of course, the ultimate punch-drunk “ally” - the one who was the real enemy - was the fool on the hill, R.M. Nixon.

By 1986, Kerry has eased off on two of the details he inserted in the earlier narrative, the exact date and the distance of the incursion into Cambodia. The punchline, however, remains the same - Nixon’s mendacity.

There is evidence that Kerry wanted to distance himself from the specific 24 December reference, not because the story gained no extra impact from the addition of that detail (it patently does), but because it was a fabrication.

This would not be the first time that someone has used deception in order to highlight the (perceived greater - as in, of a different order) deception of another.

See that could all be true. Kerry did ease off the specific date later.

I don’t see the evidence for Kerry easing off because it was a fabrication. Have look at the Slate article a few posts earlier.

Brief summary: We know he was in the area and was in combat. We cannot be sure of the precise location, vis a vis the border, or which date we are discussing.

I’m also not really convinced that the narrative gains extra punch from the Christmas date. That said your argument is a good one. It just isn’t sufficiently based on evidence to found a belief in me.

I’ve written earlier that I suspect Kerry has conflated events in his memory to fashion a better narrative. Memory plays tricks like that so I’m cautious about attributing it to conspiracy.

Why mention this at all in a thread about where Kerry was Christmas 1968? Is this your real beef with Kerry?

No. but here’s an opportunity to ask a real vet who served at that particular time if Kerry’s charges against the American soldiers are bona fide. I was not there.

Sure, as soon as everyone agrees that George W Bush was never in Alabama in 1972, like he claimed on several different occasions, including the White House Rose Garden. :rolleyes:

I’m confused. If where Kerry was during the Vietnam war doesn’t have much (or any) affect on his ablity to deal with things that’ll happen in the next four years, doesn’t logic dictate that the same is true of Bush? So isn’t harping on where one was but not the other was is kind of hypocritical of people who keep bringing them up?

I personally don’t see how killing a bunch of another country’s soldiers makes you any more fit than another person to run the country, but then the era of the war hero president had passed by the time I was born. Is never having been a soldier on the frontlines going to be held against a woman who runs? There probably aren’t many women soldiers who have seen the frontlines who are old enough to run for president, after all…

Deceptive discourse is a particular research interest of mine. Something that may illuminate Kerry’s case was touched on in an article I had published in the International Journal of Speech, Language and Law (formerly ‘Forensic Linguistics’) in December 2003 called ‘Massaging the Evidence: the “Over-Working” of Witness Statements in Civil Cases’.

As a bit of background, an eminent attorney, George Hampel QC, says that ‘the art of persuasion…involves creating or changing perceptions to influence the result’. Narratives play a very important part in court (and out if it) in creating these perceptions. Thus, from my own experience, while written witness statements are officially and ostensibly consist of ‘evidence as to facts’, in fact their essence lies in their emotive effect (bursts of direct speech added to the narrative to endorse authenticity is a good example).

In a section of my paper called ‘Reconstruction: Resolving Contradictions through Retelling’, I analyse a scenario in which the witness statement of the defendant functions to correct the witness statement of a friendly witness. The correction, as you will see, was necessary because of a foul-up over dates.

The witness is writing about complaints made about the plaintiff:

‘The plaintiff was responsible for teaching the module, and the first session was taught in rooms 104 & 105 of the [name of building] on 1st April 1999. The day following that session, I bumped into several students in the [name of building] and they told me that many of them had left during the break between the first half and the second half of the three-hour session.’

After three paragraphs detailing the students’ complaints, the witness continues:

‘In view of the students’ concerns, I subsequently told the defendant about this matter after a meeting on 7th April 1999.’

In the next paragraph, the witness explicitly spells out the date of her meeting with the students:

‘Having heard the complaints from the students on 2nd April 1999, I was a little concerned, so I attended the second grammar session on 8th April 1999.’

Thus, the witness twice specifies that it was on the day after the first session, ‘2nd April 1999’, that she was told by unhappy students about the plaintiff’s unsatisfactory teaching performance.

In *her * witness statement, however, although the defendant refers, in common with the witness, to a discussion that they had ‘after a meeting … on 7th April’, unlike the witness, she refers to the source of the complaints as telephone calls:

‘After a meeting in the afternoon on 7th April, [the witness] came up to me and told me that she had had several phone calls from her students complaining about the plaintiff’s first session.’

In my paper, I explain the significance of this shift in detail thus:

‘Central to any understanding of the difference in the two versions is the fact that, in 1999, Friday 2nd April was Good Friday and a public holiday. Whether or not the shift in specification of the channel of communication between the witness and the students in the defendant’s account was motivated by the realisation that a face-to-face teacher/student conversation was unlikely to have occurred on a public holiday, what is very marked is that the defendant should take steps to explicitly specify the mode whereby one third party, a group of students, had communicated with another third party, the witness. In this respect, she would appear to be answering a question that no one – except perhaps the lawyers – is actually asking.’

Incidentally, I tend towards a belief in cock-ups rather than conspiracy (except where conspiracy can be “proven”). But the cock-ups, and resultant cover-ups and attempts to cloud the water and confuse, testify to the darkness of the human heart when one’s livelihood is under threat.

http://www.cheerleadersfortruth.com/

With this bombshell, GeeDubya’s carefully cultivated image as a world leader with pep becomes doubtful.

Consider: no medical records exist to show that “Gimme a G! Gimmee a W!” was ever treated for any of the myriad sprains, strains, dislocations and veneral diseases that were the common fate of the collegiate enthusiasticist. None.

Consider: of the approximately 1,200 attendees at the Yale/Miskatonic game, none, not one, has come forth to verify his claims of service at that game. About a thousand snooty Ivy Leagueing assholes, and not one even notices be yelled at through a megaphone by a slacker punk with a Texas accent!

Not one!

Since he is entirely capable of lying about matters of the gravest national importance, how can we be sure he isn’t lying about this as well? I ask you, how?

Why yes, why do you ask?

The stupidity of your response is only surpassed by the staggering ignorance of your other postings. On second thought, no it’s not.

Hedge nothing, I hadn’t heard anything about this “Christmas in Cambodia” business until I read the OP. I really needed some info, which I assumed everyone had but me. Thanks, Liberal.

OK, the specifics of his story change every so often, except the Christmas part.

So the fact of the matter is, the one part fo the story that remains, the Christmas part, isn’t true.

Perhaps not an objective answer, but I would be interested to know
grienspace’s subjective answer. Obciously, the only reason to bring it up at all is because Kerry is running for president, and gs thinks this is relevant to the decision process. I just want to know how.

It’s a war story. The specifics always get embellished. If we break his various statement down into its logical components, we get “I was in my gunboat” AND “I was in Cambodia” AND “I was getting shot at” AND “Nixon said we weren’t there” AND “It was Christmas 1968”. We have shown that the last sub-statement isn’t true. However, the failure of the entire concatenated statement to be true does not mean that each and every substatement is not true.

“I [Kerry] was in my gunboat”
“I was in Cambodia”
“I was getting shot at”, and
“Nixon said we weren’t there”

are all true statements through the simple virtue of the documentary record of each of them happening. Concatenating just those together would be a true statement as well, and could be used, to whatever extent they lent themselves to it, to inform someone’s judgement as to Kerry’s fitness for the office of the chief executive.

Now I do have to read a bit into the OP here. I assume the only reason we are discussing Kerry is because of his candidacy. I read from grienspace’s phrasing a bit of indignance over the fact that the statement “It was Christmas 1968” is not true, and I surmise that the reason for the OP is that it should be somehow relevant to an estimation of Kerry’s fitness for office.

I just want to know how.