There is some very tough competition for that trophy.
elucidator, if one is to demand cites, as you did, then one has to accept what was actually said, not what someone assumes he really, really, really intended to say.
Unless I didn’t hear my television correctly, Kerry prefaced the statement in question with: “But we’re here to talk about education.” Think some folks might take this to be a shift in subject matter?
No.
'Night, y’all.
**John[b/], fer cryin’ in the beer, the whole friggin’ speech was in reference to education, he was speaking at a university! If he were speaking at a Ford plant, he would probably mention automobiles. When he spoke at Bob Jones U., he talked about clot-witted religious fanatics. Oh, wait, he never, that was the other guy…
You claim that it was an unambiguous insult to our troops, yet cannot, apparently, point to what makes it so. Doesn’t that tell you something?
Carol Stream, your rigorous attention to the record–regardless of context–is admirable. By extending your logic, here are a few “facts” about President Bush:
- Bush thought the WMDs might be under his couch, or behind the drapes
- Bush believes there are multiple internets
- Bush believes humans can live underwater, or that fish can live on land
- Bush did marijuana and/or cocaine as a child
- Bush believes that he is the First Lady
- Bush never stops thinking of ways to harm our country
Of course, the average person would write off the quotes I’m referencing as mistaken, in error… botched, if you will. But not you, not the right wing echo chamber, and not our gullible and lazy mainstream media.
Kerry screwed up a joke, the righties made hay with it, it worked, and everyone’s distracted from any actual news. It worked. Nice job.
(emphasis ambushed)
Cites?
Please list a representative sample of citations demonstrating that Kerry said “American soldiers are idiots” and “worse” and “on many occasions”, excluding his recent comment.
PUOSU
Eh. You have a cite, I have a cite. If Kerry is putting out two different stories about what he was supposed to have said, then maybe both are bogus.
“No” to what? If you are referring to JC of M’s post previous to yours, why not? His point is exactly correct. There was a shift in topic, as his words clearly state.
As far as him “intending” to insult the troops, of course that wasn’t his* intent*. He was attempting to ingratiate himself with his audience by pointing to the unpopular war. When he brought the troops into it the way he did, the insult was the cost of his pandering.
He attempted to be avuncular, but he used the troops as the example to be avoided: the result of failure. That’s dangerous territory for a politician to trod upon. When he attempted to use humor at the same time, the risk factor shot up. He fucked up. If he would have apologized and not gotten so uppity defensive, I would have let it slide. Anyone can be inarticulate or botch a line or two. But he didn’t do that.
As far as your hammer-headed insistence that there is only one way to view his comment—your way—keep it up. Put it in every thread you write. It still won’t be true. But hey, knock yourself out.
And what way did he bring the troops into it? By repeatedly referring to Bush?
“But we’re here to talk about education. You know, education, if you make the most of it, you study hard, you do your homework and you make an effort to be smart, you can do well. If you don’t, you get stuck in Iraq.”
He’s talking about student performance. He is giving an example as to what can happen if you don’t study hard. He could have ended it with:
“…If you don’t, you’ll be stuck in mimimum wage jobs.”
“…If you don’t, you won’t have the bright future you envision for yourselves.”
“…If you don’t, you won’t be able to provide for your wives and children the way you want to.”
All of these and a hundred more would have made complete sense and no one would have raised an eyebrow. But what he did say is that your academic failure will result in you being stuck in Iraq. Well, who is stuck in Iraq? The troops.
The argument that he was referring to Bush I find weak. Why would he refer to Bush’s academic record when it was basically as mediocre as his own? And how does this mediocre academic record of Bush’s equate to him being sctuk in Iraq? And how would his equally mediocre academic record make him more capable to handle the situation? No, I don’t buy it.
It makes much more sense to me that he was trying to give an example that would be relavant to the age group. Those “stuck” in Iraq are slightly older than many in his audience. This would be a natural comparison to make. As I said, he attempted to ingratiate himself and he didn’t think his words through. That is why I think a timely heartfelt apology was called for and would have taken much of the steam out of this.
[In my indoor voice] Please put that down, dear; you might break it. Thanks. Carol, honey, sometimes it’s more important to focus on what someone intends to say rather than merely the words that come out of their mouth. Remember when funny old Uncle George made eenie weenie little boo-boos like:
and
You see, honey? Do you think it’s right to hold someone to the exact words they uttered and ignore what they really meant to say? Do you really believe we should hold Uncle John to a higher standard than Uncle George?
Okay, now. Class dismissed.
Or, he could have ended it in exactly the way he intended:
“…If you don’t, you end up getting us stuck in Iraq.”
I vastly prefer that line. Which, as he and his staff has emphasized again and again, is what he had meant to say (see my post #353 about giving people the benefit of the doubt about what they meant to say)
Wow, you actually seem to believe that a decorated veteran like John Kerry would attack himself! Wasn’t he one of the troops? Wasn’t he a mediocre student, and wasn’t he stuck in Vietnam? But didn’t he earn a better grade on supporting the troops (a “B”) than even John McCain (a “D”)?
These Republican arguments are ridiculous on their face. They are massively disingenuous. Kerry’s speech was pure Bush-bashing. But right in the middle of all this Bush-bashing we’re supposed to believe he suddenly jumped right out of the moment, suddenly got ultra-serious, and suddenly decided to attack himself and his own fellow servicemen?
The Republican leaders don’t believe that for a second, but were deliriously happy to pretend otherwise (as were craven political cowards like Hillary Clinton, who’ll get my vote the day the craven political coward John McCain does).
In short, magellan01, I don’t buy it.
And your opinion of Iraqis who have taken up arms to resist the foreign invader & occupier, how does that fit into all this?
Despite the fact that he actually said “Bush” several times, but never said “troops” once? Who’s stuck in Iraq? Bush is stuck in Iraq! Well, isn’t he?
I see your point. But he shifted gears. He riffed on Bush then segued: “But we’re here to talk about education…” He did his Bush shtick then moved on to advice for students. The language he used is clearly addressing academics. The kids are in school. And what’s going to happen if they don’t buckle down? They’ll wind as a 19-year-old kid with no options, except the military, and then sent to Iraq where they’ll be stuck.
I honestly think that is a more logical interpretation than "Look, if you don’t buckle down and study you’ll wind up (like the) President of the United States in a war with as few options as Bush has in Iraq. That just makes no sense to me. Especially when this interpretation means that he was focusing a light on Bush’s mediocre GPA, which was one point higher than his.
Says he intended. Based on his words and his actions I don’t believe him.
He was an officer with a college degree from Harvard. He was hardly one of those to whom he was alluding.
Yes. Slightly worse than Bush.
Stuck? It doesn’t seem so. He managed to get out pretty quickly.
How about the democrats who seem to agree with them?
Since you know what people believe, even when it runs counter to their stated opinions, I would think the whole debate board thing would be quite a waste of your amazing power and skills, no?
Oh my, the great ambush of the blind pitting and "oh look, I have a cite that proves my point (well, actually just an author whose opinion agrees with mine) so the argument is over!!! disagrees with me! I am crushed and shant sleep a wink tonight. By the way, still waiting for that apology.
In my recollection, on the NBC evening news every day this week so far, everyone on the air – including Brian Williams and Tim Russert – reported as an absolute, undeniable FACT that Kerry had insulted the troops. No mention was made of any other possible view.
I watch NBC and don’t recall it being reported that way. I also am a regular Hardball viewer and Chris Matthews has been most vehement in his opinion that the joke was meant for Bush and that the other interpretation is dishonest politics. I don’t recall any of his guests this week opining that it was an insult to servicemen. As far as Bush goes, he’s either an opportunistic politician desperate to talk about anything except his colossal failure in Iraq and/or he’s too stupid to get a joke about how stupid he is.
You’ve got a point there… you aren’t going to make many political points by insulting the troops. (I had originaly written “any” but that isn’t correct)
But it’s not at all beyond the Dem playbook to try to make points by saying the troops are not as smart or advantaged as the average American… and they have every right to be insulted by that.