Knowledge of history is necessary to participate in a democracy.
Maybe she should opt out of math class because 2+2=4 never happened.
I think I am, too… and they say your own perception is half the battle. 
Just playing devil’s advocate, here, diogenes, but wouldn’t your rather hard-line approach expose me to that same judgement as well? In other words, I hold what some may consider some controversial views as well.
Sticking with world war two as a theme, I fully support the decision to drop atomic bombs on Japan to end the war. In fact, I have intentionally passed this belief on to my daughter-- in effect “deciding” what she will believe in that particular debate at least until she’s old enough to effectively evaluate it for itself.
Granted, my A-bomb stance is an opinion, which can’t be proven “wrong” whereas this Holocaust thing is a fact which is simply being ignored, and that’s a big distinction.
Still, I’d hate to think someone could accuse me of anything approaching"child abuse" just because, in their view, I’m imparting a value or belief to my kid that the person judging me finds objectionable within his or her frame of reference.
Oh-- and Zoe– a trip to D.C. is indeed on the eighth-grade docket for sometime this spring, depending on what threat-level we’re in at the time.
I had no idea “the attic” was at the Holocaust Museum-- is it a recreation, or the real thing?
UnoMondo, it doesn’t even matter if you think it’s necessary. It her right as a US citizen to recieve a full education. That right is being involuntarily taken away from her.
Anyway, that whole “why do I need to know___?” thing is something I grew out of in about the 6th grade.
its not child abuse, Dio, but its certainly hampering her education.
(vanilla,beating Diogenes post count by a little)
Ammo: It isn’t a question of opinion, it’s a question of withholding a basic education. The parents can think whatever they want about Jews and they can even pass their nastiness on to their daughter. They don’t have a right to deprive her of her right to learn the facts of history, though.
To address your analogy, you are giving your daughter your personal views on something that factually happened. It would be different if you denied that the bombs were ever dropped or that the Japanese never attacked Pearl Harbor.
AsEli suggested, it’s like teaching her that two plus two equals five.
Further than that, Diogenes, it would be like denying the bombs were dropped AND requiring the school to excuse her from the class in which that event is discussed.
(But just to touch on your question: I have found through a lot of observation in these boards that the moment that in any discussion someone approaches “Telling Someone How to Raise their Children”<tm> or, even worse, how the Government should raise their children, there are some very uncomfortable reactions. Because of course, that would mean there IS a right to tell someone else how to raise their children… and boy does that terrify every parent I know…)
As to the OP, Geez… I dunno, is the School Board’s policy to excuse a child from ANY class that their parents may find objectionable? How the hell is the system governable in any way then?
The first time I heard about Holocaust deniers, I thought, in my naivety, it was merely “wishful thinking”. Like someone was so horrified and upset that they refuse to believe it happened.
This makes me sad.
Poor A.
Do you honestly think that reading Anne Frank in grade school is the only time she would ever be exposed to that bit of history? Surely not. Parents’ kooky conspiracy theories are gonna lose their hold eventually, because the way some people teach WW2 these days it’s like the entire thing was about the holocaust. When she gets to high school, they’ll surely study the war, and I doubt the teacher is going to present a political theory analysis exposing the flaws of German national socialism. No, he’ll just say “nazis bad, killed jews” because it gets you to the same place and its simpler. So I guarantee this kid will not be denied a basic understanding of 20th century history, no matter what her parents want.
And that’s also a good way to start a conversation on the dangers of bad casting (Liam Neeson…<shudder>…so…bad…)
On to the OP…
Fair? I don’t know, but you aren’t really obligated to be fair. I dated a girl once upon a blue moon that was really into new age mysticism, in a real grab-bag sort of way. It just frustrated me to no end. Was it “fair” to judge that? I dunno, but I just knew that her worldview drove me batty, as I’m the kind of guy who likes to look at everything through the lenses of reason, consistency, patterns, and so forth. But if we hadn’t been dating I would have just shrugged it off, if she’d just been a casual friend I wouldn’t have been as bothered. I just find irrational beliefs maddening with repeated exposure.
I’d say if you’re bothered by it to the point of distraction whenever you even think about them, then there’s nothing you can do about that, whether or not it’s “fair” you oughtta follow your gut instinct and keep a distance. But I’d imagine that this isn’t something they readily bring up, so I doubt it would interfere with a “step into the foyer and chat” sort of relationship.
And you can’t leap to conclusions about them from the holocaust-denial alone. In my younger years, I resented what I perceived as the tendency to use the holocaust as a shield to protect Israel from criticism and suspected the numbers of being inflated for that purpose by some conspiracy. Not quite the same thing as outright denial, but anyways I never held that position as part of some sweeping set of racist beliefs it was just one of many kooky conspiracies I bought into when I was an ignorant youth. Conspiracy theories make it easier to understand the forces of the world, removing the complex interaction of dozens of competing forces and replacing that with the simplicity of a sinister plot.
So you might give 'em the benefit of the doubt and just assume they fall for wacky conspiracies. If your kid comes home some day telling a racist joke she heard over there, that’s when you pull the plug.
Well… I’m not so sure of that as a strict question of rights, per se… Review Wisconsin v. Yoder, where an Amish family defied a compulsory state attendance law on religious grounds. In the particular case, they pulled their children from school after eighth grade, presumably before they would have been exposed to much history (though that wasn’t specifically the issue in question).
Interesting question: Does parental prerogative weigh the same without a religious claim? I’m under the impression that the “compelling state interest” rule applies. And while we might agree that it is in the state’s interest to educate children about the dangers of hatred and racism, it’s entirely possible that courts might decide in favor of the parents natural right to raise their children as they see fit.
DtC, I think that confrontation on this issue would only harden their resolve. Afaik, a parent CAN in fact keep a student out of a particular subject. At my son’s school a few years ago, a parent kept his kid out of class…because they were teaching evolution. A parent has the legal right to decide what their kid learns or doesn’t learn…and if they totally disagree, they can always home school. In fact, I know a few parents that in fact DO that…home school their kids.
Honest, there is no rush for little A. The knowledge is out there. If she ends up going to college, she will be exposed to the information sometime or other. It will be for HER to make a decision after she flys the nest…just like all of us did. I was brought up in a fairly strict catholic home. Most of my extended family is VERY catholic…it kind of goes hand in hand with being hispanic. I am not…I’m an agnostic that is probably more like an out and out athiest…much to the distress of my folks and my family. Little A can ALSO make a choice when she gets older. I’ve know people who were creationists and very religious (like, say, my inlaws)…but THIER kids, while exposed to what I frankly think of as complete bullshit, made their OWN decisions when they got older. Sure, some of them stayed creationists…but many of them didn’t (most of the ones that went to colleged didn’t even make it through their first year before they through away that crap).
Anyway, I think that you are playing it right ammo52…for whatever thats worth.
-XT
IIRC, if it becomes a free exercise clause issue, you have the “strict scrutiny” standard, which means the school’s action would have to:
- serve a “compelling state interest”, and
- be narrowly tailored to address that interest
Also, while the courts have used a very restrictive definition of “religion” for purposes of the establishment clause, they’ve used a very broad one for purposes of the free exercise clause. So possibly you’d get the “Christian Identity” movement under those auspices, with those parents objecting to the teaching that all races are equal since part of their “religion” is that black people are descendants of Cain and white Anglos are the real descendants of the tribes of Israel…it’d be an interesting case, to say the least.
This is the first time I’ve ever heard of someone pulling a kid out of class without religious reasons. During our 9th grade literature class we spent nearly a whole semester on Greek mythology. One girl couldn’t participate based on religious grounds and was given other assignments. She spent an awful lot of time in the library during that semester to the point where most of us forgot she was in the class.
I’m inclined to let parents pull their kids out of class even for ridiculous reasons. The school should give that kid another set of assignments during that time.
Marc
It’s approximately 10.5 million people, Gadfly, not 6 million Jews. Please get it straight – if not out of an interest in accuracy, then because only mentioning the Jews who died feeds the perception that Jews use the Holocaust to deflect criticism and generate sympathy.
For a while I was a Holocaust-denier-denier. I couldn’t believe anyone could take that amount of evidence and discard it. Until I saw David Irving.
The school system needs to treat these people just like the evolution deniers and the flat earthers. Screw em. It’s the 21st century, if they want to blatantly mislead their children for political or religious ends, tough nookie. And if they’re so stupid they actually buy this crap, I question their competence to rear children.
The girl’s parents were clearly wrong to make her opt out of the assignment, but I’d say they were within their rights to do it.
Let’s turn this around a little: Let’s say your kid’s school had an approved curriculum that you had a problem with, like “creation science” (Doesn’t Kansas have this now?) or a history course that whitewashes American treatment of Pacific Islanders following the Spanish-American War, or an alcohol awareness program that was underwritten by Anheuser-Busch. Wouldn’t you reserve the option of pulling your kid from that lesson plan?
Sure, the more responsible course would be to discuss it with the kid over dinner and offer an opposing viewpoint (I’ve had big arguments with my niece over the value of recycling programs and “sensitivity training” for example). But is it that inconceivable to you that the school could cross a line in a major way?
Well, from a German perspective, there’s a huge difference. Not the least because Holocaust denial is a punishable offense here. Fred Leuchter once made the mistake of wanting to appear on a German TV show without checking the local laws.
The Holocaust is a fact, and there is a huge difference between withdrawing your kid because you yourself deny reality, or because it is a school program that denies reality.
A factual question: On what basis can the parents remove their child? I could understand it if the book were Lolita, but Anne Frank?
Also even David Irving doesn’t deny that lots and lots of jews were killed. He thinks that it was disease that did for them though. I remember hearing him on a radio phone in (pre trial) and a jewish woman phoning in and saying “the germans killed my granny” and Irving saying that was probably true - but that she would have died of typhoid.
What happens in other subjects. What if they are Pythagoras deniers?
Yes, but my examples–some of which, in fact, occur in many US public schools (although I lack data on the Creation Science one)–deny reality as well and should be subject to the same degree of outrage. They’re not.