Kid can't read "Diary of Anne Frank"--guess why

Great Debates
161

I’m not even going to bother with a point-by-point refutation - this is starting to look less and less like a great debate, and more and more like a pitting.

TVAA, I think your notions of ethnicity are wrong, but I have already explained why a couple of times, and don’t see how going over them again and again will prove instructive.

I understand that you hate Orthodox Jews, and that is quite unfortunate. I have tried my best to combat what I see as harmful ignorance and prejudice on this topic. I will leave it to others to decide whether I have succeeded or failed in this task. I simply don’t have the patience to continue a sterile and increasingly acrimonious debate.

162

Damn, am I an idiot - I didn’t notice the “BANNED” label on TVAA.

I guess this debate is not going to continue, whether I want it to or not!

Well, I hope it wasn’t for this thread.

163

It is hard to know when TVAA is serious and when he is trolling …

If (as Malthus had asked early on without response) TVAA was consistent with his disgust to all of what Vonnegut labeled granfalloons, then his position might be defensible. This would require a similar disgust to anyone who called themselves an American citizen. After all, one becomes an American citizen in similar ways to becoming a Jew. One can be born into it or one can learn about country, pass a test, meet other requirements, and become a citizen. Membership in the group entitles one to certain privliges and brings with it certain responsibilities. It includes different subcultures and racial groupings. And many Americans feel that they have an obligation to be a model of democratic values. Many other group memberships, heck, most other group memberships, also meet TVAA’s logical equivilancy. If he is disgusted with them all, then his position, while still wrong, is at least defensible.

If he is not, then he is either an antisemitic bigot or he is trolling for fun. And I now notice that he was banned. I’ll join the big wave bye-bye.

164

I just finished watching a CSPAN program, “State of the First Amendment,” sponsored by the Close Up Foundation. The only speaker was **Kenneth Paulson, **First Amendment Center Executive Director (The web site gives his title as “Freedom Forum senior vice president”). I found him a very articulate and a joy to listen to. Referencing appropriate legal cases, he described the state of free speech and of the press as it exists today.

An audience member asked about teaching evolution vs. religious theories on the origin of species in public schools. Paulson said that he felt schools should not shy away from teaching about the world’s religions, but they should never be preaching a religion.

He said that even if a student did not agree with the textbook in biology class, it was incumbent upon the student to learn the course while attending. After class, the student could go home or to a church, where he could read, write, or practice whatever his religion prescribed. Paulson said, and this is an exact quote,

I think that statement applies to the topic in this thread as well.

165

I’m totally stunned. I had no idea there were people that denied the holocaust happened.

Wow. Thanks for the story and the info.

Wow…

166

Or at least run a defrag.

167

For some reason, people seem to think that Concentration camps, which were very real, and the Holocaust is the same thing. There is one without the other. No one denies that thousands or even millions of Jews were sent away to these camps along with Poles, Gypsies, etc. In my opinion you must talk to your daughter’s friend’s parents about their views. Even if you never agree with them it is still to your advantage to know why they believe what they do. Remember, you can never have enough knowledge. So far, everyone seems to be in agreement about Anne Frank and the Holocaust. I noticed that David Irving has already been mentioned. Mr. Irving does not deny that Ms. Frank was an actual child who died in the camps, he just doesn’t believe she wrote the famous diary named after herself. If the Diary itself is a propaganda tool, then what else have we been told that served the same purpose? You know how war is, if you don’t just read what Foxnews.com or CNN.com has to say about the Iraq war. The leaders of any country will convince you of anything to make you hate the enemy. If you’d like to read his well-researched reason for not believing that Anne Frank actually wrote her diary go to this site: http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/controversies/Anne Frank/Jules150286.html To make a side point, of course Irving is considered a neo-Nazi! Anyone who doesn’t swallow everything said about Jewish Perfection is labeled as such. There are a few valid reasons for not believing the Holocaust occurred. One reason
is why would the German army waste precious fuel reserves
during a time of war to gas and burn thousands of people? On the American side civilians sacrificed much to aid in the war effort, and somehow the Germans were so overloaded with resources they could burn piles of dead bodies? What logic is that? A second reason many people deny the Holocaust is because of an article in the October 31, 1919 issue of the American Hebrew Magazine. The article quoted Martin Glynn, a former governor of NY, as saying that SIX MILLION Jewish people faced a HOLOCAUST during World War One. Yes, you read that correctly. World War One. Here is the article http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniques-of-denial/appendix-4-01.html Something else that is interesting to note is that according to the Talmud (Jewish Bible) billions of Jews have been killed over and over again. The Talmud also says that Gentiles, i.e., Christians and other non-Jews are not even human, and are considered animals. This is one reason Israelis today have so little regard for Arab life. Back to the subject at hand, here is
a quote paraphrased from the Talmud, "Lies of a Roman Holocaust

Here are two early “Holocaust” tales from the Talmud: Gittin 57b. Claims that four billion Jews were killed by the Romans in the city of Bethar. Gittin 58a claims that 16 million Jewish children were wrapped in scrolls and burned alive by the Romans. Ancient demography indicates that there were not 16 million Jews in the entire world at that time, much less 16 million Jewish children or four billion Jews… that tells us about today’s modern Jew’s lies about those 6 million Jews killed by Nazis". You can read the entire article here: http://www.inreview.com/archive/topic/12086.html To clarify a point, I’m not saying Jews didn’t suffer during WWII, just like many other groups on both sides of the fighting. Also, don’t forget, there were concentration camps in America, too. Of course, they aren’t mentioned because to the victor goes the spoils, and since the Allies won World War Two the Japanese, Italian, and German victims of American camps are quietly forgotten just like the Gypsies, Poles and other groups in the Axis camps. I could make a few more points but I’m sure there is little use. To most people the term “Holocaust” elicits a knee-jerk response in which they immediately yell, “Oh the poor Jews!” and never bother to do any research of their own. If history has taught us anything it is that people are easily duped (think of Mass Hysteria), the Government of any country will lie to support it’s own interests, even if the lies negatively affect its citizenry. Hopefully, however, at least one of you will be of sterner mind, and will read, learn, and decide for yourself if the extermination of Six Million people ever really happened. If you don’t agree with my post first ask yourself if you’ve ever looked into this matter on your own, with an unbiased opinion or are you just spouting the same PC rhetoric that’s been handed down in our public schools for decades? Most of you, I’m sure, do the latter. Well, just once, do your own research, form your own opinions, and question the popular answer. You may be glad you did.

168

::: sigh :::

Irving is considered a Holocaust Denier because he manufactured information that he published while denying that the Holocaust occured. He is not generally known as a neo-Nazi, although there may be some people who have called him one.

This is a statement of astounding ignorance. The Talmud is not the bible. It is a collection of commentaries and arguments within the Jewish community over several hundred years, with many of the commentaries being addressed to understanding the bible and much of it being addressed to issues of how to conduct one’s life in light of the Law and the rest of Scripture. Within those commentaries and discussions, one can find individual passages that say uncomplimentary things about the Christians who were periodically persecuting them, including some historcally inaccurate statements. Given that they recorded just about all their discussions through that period, it should not be a surprise to find some thoughts that ar4e harsh or in error. (Although I would want to see an actual citation for the claims you have made, given the large number of lies published about the Talmud that never occur in that work.)

[quote]
Also, don’t forget, there were concentration camps in America, too. Of course, they aren’t mentioned because to the victor goes the spoils, and since the Allies won World War Two the Japanese, Italian, and German victims of American camps are quietly forgotten just like the Gypsies, Poles and other groups in the Axis camps.

[quote]
If you think that the detention centers (for the European nationals) and the concentration camps (for the ethnic Japanese) have been “forgotten,” you are simply deluding yourself. There are numerous works describing those events (along with the money that Congress voted to make a token reparation to the camp detainees).

There is more than ample evidence for the extermination of 11.5 million people by the Nazis (of whom around 5.8 million were Jews). Only people who have an agenda to push try to pretend the event did not occur.

169

If you think that the detention centers (for the European nationals) and the concentration camps (for the ethnic Japanese) have been “forgotten,” you are simply deluding yourself. There are numerous works describing those events (along with the money that Congress voted to make a token reparation to the camp detainees).

There is more than ample evidence for the extermination of 11.5 million people by the Nazis (of whom around 5.8 million were Jews). Only people who have an agenda to push try to pretend the event did not occur.

170

#1. Thanks for replying to my post. I’m afraid you misunderstood my reference to the Talmud as the Jewish Bible. I only meant that in the way that it is something used to shape their lives. I’m atheist, so to me a Bible is nothing more than a book used by a people to further their own goals.

#2. Please tell me how the Germans were able to gas and burn thousands and millions of people during a time of war. Doesn’t that strike you as a little incredible? Not to mention stupid. Give me sources. The main point of my long-winded post is that war is full of propaganda, and the majority of what you hear about the enemy is going to be untrue.

#3. Have a good day. I seriously doubt anyone on these posts will even bother trying to think about this issue from an unbiased perspective, like I said earlier.

#4. Just out of curiosity, do you support Israel or Palestine? I’m not judging you, I just think some background on your beliefs will help me to understand where you are coming from.

Sincerely,
G.

171

#1. However, by erroneously referring to the Talmud as a “bible,” you distort the character and nature of the work. As I noted, the nature of the Talmud was to include ongoing debates, so finding an individual passage that said something in error (or something hateful toward persecutors of the Jewish people) does not indicate either the misunderstanding or the prejudices of the Jewish people unless you can provide additional supporting statements from other Jewish sources.

#2. The Germans were able to do whatever they chose, simply because they allowed their Hitler-directed hatred to overcome their common sense. Stupid? Certainly, as was the direction to commit all resources on Messerschmitt jets to turning them into attack bombers instead of the fighters for which they were designed, as was the monumental stupidity of attacking the U.S.S.R., as was the failure of German industry in many instances to go to round-the-clock manufacturing, as was the whole notion of building up an elite military machine and failing to build a manufacturing base to support it for more than a couple of years. The Nazis were very shrewd in many of their actions, but there is no indication that they actually acted with great intelligence or brilliance across all their actions. (If you are trying to claim that they did not have the petroleum resources to maintain crematoria, I would point out that the Allies were rather spectacularly unsuccessful in paralyzing the German petroleum industry during the war.)

#3. I presume that you are including yourself in the claim that no one will “bother” to examine the facts? This link shows the results of the analysis by U.S. and British researchers about nine months after WWII, showing the extreme loss of Jewish population during that war. This study was conducted by impartial observers who were not working for any “Jewish” group and had no vested interest in “Jewish” propaganda. Further, if one studies the “works” of David Irving, particularly in the light of his attempt to silence his critics through a libel suit instead of disproving them through scholarly efforts, one soon notices that his critics were able to demonstrate his distortion of facts and his outright lies, while demonstrating the reality of the slaughter of millions of innocents.

#4. I support the right of both the Israelis and the Palestinians to have their own nations. I opposed the continued assaults by the various Arab nations to destroy Israel, but I think that Israel made a serious mistake regarding the West Bank following the 1967 war and I think that Sharon’s current administration is committing serious mistakes in their intransigence regarding negotiations and their insistence on the current land-stealing wall.

172

BTW, I have no reason to hide my views on the current IsraeliPalestinian conflict, but the question is really irrelavant to your posts: I am “coming from” a position of recognizing the factual history of the 20th century without trying to pretend certain events did not occur.

173

This is a war where an offensive can be measured as dozens of divisions, sometimes much more (The Wehrmacht has ammassed about 140 divisions for the invasion of Russia; 3 million men). At its peak in 1944, Germany had 347 divisions, or 12 million soldiers. They had the manpower. These camps required only a tiny number of soldiers (A few hundred, a few thousand at most), and much less resources than the same number of citizens would consume (Remember, we’re not introducing 11.5 million people, just relocating them, so the consumption does not increase).

The British were able to save over a third of a million soldiers from Dunkirk in just under a week, under constant attack by German forces, by using fishing boats, tug-boats, and all sorts of other civilian craft. One week. Germany had several years.

So no, it does not seem “incredible” that they could do it. In fact, it seems that it would have been relatively easy.

The USSR, Britain, US, and others all came across concentration camps, and they were thoroughly documented. This started in mid '44, and even in the last months of the european war, more were being found by advancing troops. The only people who say that it didn’t happen have to rely on verifiable lies to promote their case, things that we can see, from the very documentation they claim to cite, to be untrue. Plus, you have all the people that were in the camps, and their testimony. There isn’t much question that it did, in fact, happen.

174

And what is Gllrnz’s position on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and why?

175

Jackmannii and Tomndebb, Hopefully, all anyone could ask for is peace.

Talmud is not considered a bible. Yes, I understand now. I’m sure other people have made the same mistake. I’ve apologized, and learned my lesson. Please don’t spank me, I’ll be good.

Except me, and I ask for billions of dollars. Please give me some for xmas so my three kitties don’t go hungry.

Something you must remember is that I was not alive during WWII, and know everything by reading about it, and using common sense. It was common sense that asked me why would any nation, recently defeated in another war, want to waste fuel on its captives. It is also common sense that asks me what did the Jewish population do to Germany that was so bad the Germans (not every single German, mind you) thought that containing them in camps was the best answer. I’m sure there are many unanswered and unasked questions about pre-WWII, the war itself, and post war. I doubt anyone has all the answers.

cheers!
G.

176

And the winner is…Miss South Carolina!!
Your previous opinions were rather straightforward, so I’m not sure why you are falling back on a coy, beauty pageant contestant-type response when asked your views on the Mideast conflict.

177

Gllrnz, while there may be Holocaust deniers who are not anti-semitic, that is where the smart money bets. However, giving you the benefit of the doubt, your objection so far seems to be based on the fact that the Holocaust made no sense. On that, I don’t think you will find any argument.

However, in an earlier posting I see you linked to Nizkor. Have you spent the time reading the material there? Photographs, memoranda, confessions, eye-witness accounts are all available for study. Is this all a hoax? If so, by whom? Careful, as the usual answer to that question would tend to put you in some very unpleasant company.

You point out that you were not alive during the War, and that your source is written materials. The fact is that there are people still alive who where there. There are guards from the camps who, when they are discovered living under false identities, don’t argue that the Holocaust is all a Big Lie, but rather deny their own identity. There are American, British, and Russian veterans who liberated the camps, and who will remember their experiences there until the day they die. And there are a handful of survivors of the camps still alive, many with their camp number tattoos still visible. Are these people all part of the conspiracy as well?

178

What did black Africans do that made so many Europeans and Arabs seek to plunder them to force them into chattel slavery? What did the original inhabitants of the Americas do that encouraged European colonizers to conquer and destroy them instead of establishing trade with their nations? What did the Europeans and peoples of Northern India and the Middle East do that encouraged the Mongols to seek to conquer them? What did Jewish immigrants to the U.S. do that encouraged the rest of society to exclude them from universities and clubs and jobs and housing?

There is a strong streak of xenophobia in the human race that allows people to treat other people as objects and to impose harsh conditions on them, whether as sources of labor or plunder or as objects of hatred.

Regarding Judaism, in particular, there was a many century old tradition of Christians looking on Jews as the people who rejected Jesus and who, in turn, were rejected by the church. Although that attitude took several hundred years to fully blossom in Westen Europe, by the twelfth century European Christians were actively oppressing Jews as a spin-off of war fever during the Crusades. The Church took increasingly hostile attitudes towards them. In the 16th century, the Spanish monarchy decided to purge them from Spain (possibly to erase the debts that were owed to them from financing the Christian war against the Moors) and when Martin Luther, believing that they had only rejected Christianity because of the errors of the Catholic Church, was unable to persuade the Jews to join him, he proclaimed that they were ungrateful people who should be destroyed. Later, the Catholic Church imposed ever harsher penalties on the Jews for simply being different. Between the Catholics and the Protestants, a several hundred year tradition of blaming Jews for all the ills of society had created an environment in which it was all too easy to condemn the entire people. (You should note, also, that only around 600,000 of the Jews murdered were German. Most of the people murdered–Jews, Rom, Slavs and others among the 11.5 million–were from nations outside Germany, making it easier for the “Master Race” to whip up the propaganda needed to get people to carry out their orders.)

179

Having recently (a mere 4 years ago) gone through the public schools system, I can guarantee that this is not going to be the only time that A. will encounter the Shoah. She will encounter it in various English classes through high school (Diary of Anne Frank, Night, etc.), as well as in her history classes. I know that some civics classes teach a bit on the Shoah as well (especially comparative governments from a historical perspective). Also, if the kid goes to a public college, and even most private colleges, then she’ll get a dose of it in the required American History courses.

Being a history major (and an American History major at that!), I’ve been exposed to the Shoah more times than I have fingers over the last 7 semesters. Come to think of it, most business majors also have to take a modern Western Civ. or World Civ. course as well to complete their degree reqs, and you can’t teach modern history surveys like that without at least mentioning the Shoah, so you don’t just have to be a historian to get hit with it. I remember having to read “This way to the Gas, ladies and gentlemen” by Borowsky during my Western Civ. class (I know; it’s from a Polish political prisoner’s POV instead of a Jewish inmate’s but regardless…)

Chances are that A. will get a rude awakening sometimes, provided that her parents don’t pull her out of school for home schooling and force her to go to a private school where they don’t teach American history.

I would let sleeping dogs lie for now. I assume that her parents have been indoctrinating her with the idea that the Shoah didn’t happen. This is America, people are allowed to have their beliefs (even if they’re blatantly wrong as Shoah-denial). If it comes up naturally during a discussion (DON’T FORCE ONE WITH HER!!!), then explain your view on things, but don’t get on a soapbox; I cannot begin to tell you how bad that looks. If A. does discuss her indoctrination with your child, and especially if it sounds like A.'s trying to press her beliefs on your child, then I’d step in (that’s good parenting, after all). Otherwise, let it be; A.'ll get a dose of reality someday…just hope it’s sooner rather than later.

180

Okay, you make a rather convincing argument. But what are we here for if not to hash out ideas, and strengthen our minds? Your religious argument is sound. I can definitely see Christians wanting to blame Jews for the death of Jesus. Why they would want to blame people two thousand years later is beyond me. However, I don’t understand how anyone can believe in any religion so I’m not the right one to ask.

I don’t totally agree with your xenophobic response and here’s why:

The Africans who were enslaved, and the Native Americans who were slaughtered were both a darker skin color and had different habits and customs from their European or Arabic counterparts.
When European settlers first set foot upon America, they were met with people with a ruddy-red skin color, different languages, and a very different lifestyle. Xenophobia is easy to understand when there a difference of those magnitudes. Jewish people, however, look as white as any other European. Even though technically they are not Caucasian, Jewish people are fair skinned enough that, unless you know the persons heritage, you’d have no idea they weren’t white. Number two reason I don’t think that xenophobia had anything to do with it, is that Jewish people had been living in Germany for several generations before WWII. They were well established in the community, and held many important jobs. So, Jewish people and European people co-existing was nothing new. Therefore, I don’t believe xenophobia to be a valid argument.

Here’s a link from Radio Islam that my husband found that may be of some interest. http://abbc.com/historia/dailyex.htm

And another from Wayne University http://www.southend.wayne.edu/days/2003/may/5192003/oped/means/means.html

later
G.