Sailor, please have a look at #3, second paragraph, below. Basically, the infected cell stops serving the body with its function, becoming a virus “factory” instead. While the body has a lot of redundancy, there is a point where the loss of function becomes critical.
DDG, please look at #6, second paragraph, below. Acyclovir has no affect on the immune system - it is used extensively for Herpes Simplex, Genitalis and Chicken Pox (Shingles in recurrence) to eliminate or at least significantly reduce symptoms. Acyclovir is used in AIDS and other immunodepressed patients, like organ transplants, to prevent herpes outbreaks since we all, pretty much, are infected with at least one of those diseases. The early AIDS victims (early 80’s) often had monster herpes outbreaks, so much so that the doctors thought, at the time, they had a new strain of herpes. They didn’t. The patients had HIV.
Now, in response to Alphagene…
- I have never claimed to be an expert and still don’t. Alphagene claims to have a level of expertise which permits pontificating in this field of inquiry. Alphagene’s pontificating has as much impact on me as the Pope’s statements on religion to a non-RC (and maybe some RC); there are things I agree with and things I disagree with. Unlike religion, however, we are discussing an issue that can be supported (seldom proved) or disproved by examining observed phenomena. That’s how science works.
Incidently, Alphagene would attack my education, yet he listed none on his side. I do not believe that working in the field and/or knowing intelligent people imparts education. Completing prescribed courses of study, being tested and subsequently being recognized for that effort, when successful, does.
I am not asking anyone to take me as an expert, after all, this is the internet!
Further, since the title of this thread is “killing viruses,” I have to admit that discussing Alphagene’s or my education and experience is somewhat off subject.
- I made one substantive assertion in my original post, around which I said some other things. That substantive assertion is that the immune system cannot see or destroy a “free virus,” no matter how many vaccinations one might receive. Specifically, I said that at least one host cell must die in order to defeat a viral infection. My initial support for this is Cecil’s own statement made in the original column.
Since I named this thread and initiated it in order to clarify Cecil’s column or to eradicate my own ignorance, I do have the right to say what is on subject and what is off. Alphagene’s original responses were “wrong.” I could have shouted “right” back, but I haven’t - I have suggested several phenomena that appear to invalidate Alphagene’s hypothesis and, of course, support my original contention.
- My understanding of the way the immune system deals with viruses is that once the virus infects a cell and the cell loses its “self-marker” (whatever that might be - it doesn’t matter for the discussion and it doesn’t matter how long it takes) the immune system kills the infected cell (while the time it may take is important in successfully combating the infection, it doesn’t affect my assertion) and the virus within it, then cleans up the dead debris (how doesn’t matter here). Many of the symptoms of viral infection are simply the result of the immune system killing infected cells (rashes, blisters, runny noses, etc.)
Where the immune system is not successful in defeating the infection and the symptoms don’t kill the host, the problem is the loss to the body of the functions that the infected cells were responsible for (talk about “denial of service”!). This is the problem with AIDS as the virus is depriving the body of the use of T-cells meaning that other diseases (the “opportunistic diseases”) become active and serious. With herpes, it means the skin cells are not being replaced and infection will get through that barrier.
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I am not trying to reach agreement. Agreement in science delays truth. I want to be less ignorant. While I give Alphagene no credit for his pitifully inadequate experience and education achieved from rubbing shoulders, (s)he may be right about some of the assertions. I want them tested. If they hold up, great, if they don’t, we all just keep on truckin’.
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I apologize to others who feel I am being too harsh or confrontational. Similar to having no desire to reach agreement, I have no desire to make any friends here. I merely want to investigate an issue among inquiring minds. I react negatively to blowhards (defined by me as one who pontificates http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=blowhard).
Unfortunately, Alphagene seems to believe that belittling somehow helps the cause of eradicating ignorance. Instead of dealing with viruses, (s)he wants to analyze my ego. Just as Alphagene’s petite experience is inconsequential to this discussion, my ego also has nothing to do with it.
(S)He states that I am confused by Candida and that (s)he was responsible for that confusion. Maybe I am confused by Candida. I may also be confused by religious hypocrisy and political indifference to suffering, but, like Candida, they are outside the range of a thread titled “killing viruses.”.
I will point out one more time that any education or experience I may have in immunology is not pertinent, since I am not claiming to be an expert. I am merely interested.
Alphagene did ask where I got my explanation of viruses. While I don’t feel that information is pertinent to the discussion, one of the major sources for my position that free viruses cannot be seen by the immune system is the CDC (referred to on several occasions). I don’t really trust their public statements, although I do agree with this position - but agreement is not science, as mentioned earlier.
- Anyone interested in AIDS should link to http://www.hopkins-aids.edu/hiv_lifecycle/index_fram.html. This shows an animated life cycle of the HIV and the specific points where chemical assaults are being tried. It does not disagrees with my hypothesis (i.e., my hypothesis may still be either right or wrong). I think it disproves Alphagene’s hypothesis since it never mentions antibodies killing free virus as a possibility for scientific development. Of course, maybe Johns Hopkins is biased.
Similarly, we know that we humans do create antibodies for Herpes Types I, II and chicken pox, yet, the method of dealing with these herpes infections is not to create more antibodies, but to chemically interfere with the ability of the herpes virus to reproduce within an infected cell (acyclovir).
- So, Alphagene, in a non-immunocompromised person, why don’t our antibodies kill all of the CMV and KS (Kaposi’s Sarcoma) virus? Please don’t tell me that it is the same situation as Candida. I have already expressed ignorance about Candida and pointedly told you that I don’t want to know about candida.
Similarly, why don’t our antibodies kill the free herpes virus in between the nerve cell and the epithelial cell or immediately when the new generation of viruses leave the infected cell?
Please explain these phenomena and, if available, use links to accepted experts on the internet so that we can all see your support. Please don’t tell me how great you are and list your pedigree or question mine; these are just not pertinent. Also, please stop saying things like “correct” or “wrong.” I am asking only for your opinions and I am not interested in a shouting match.
I am sincerely interested in being able to judge your hypothesis based on how it explains these phenomena.
P.s If you have some phenomena to test my hypothesis with, I would be glad to consider them the best I can.