Again, 
akohl wrote, in the OP:
If this story turns out to be true – and, sadly, it does look like it very well may be true – remember that this kindergarten is run by the “Islamic Charitable Association.”
The “Islamic Charitable Association” is the public-works arm of Hamas. Hamas is the Palestinian extremist organization that has been committing all the suicide bombings on Israeli civilians in recent months. The Palestinian Authority does not condone the actions of Hamas, and as far as I know, most Palestinians do not support Hamas either.
http://www.terrorismanswers.com/groups/hamas3.html
The Palestinian authority and its head, Mr. Arafat have condoned the actions of Hamas. They have praised them, given them logistical support and even adopted their methods, no matter how objectionable from a moral point of view, when these have proven effective in gaining popular support.
Has the PA recently condemned some of the actions of Hamas? Perhaps. But this is situational since Fatah and its affilliates have themselves performed the same acts!
Here as well, my concern is that the Hamas is setting the tone and influencing the direction of the Palestinian society, just as it did in the area of terrorist tactics.
<looks hard at the picture>
- The kid looks more in the 10-12 age range than 5
- I could have made more realistic looking blood on the hands using paintshop…
Do newspapers still do propaganda photos?
Not Maariv. It’s a respectable, honest paper which has been in print since the 1920’s, and it’s never been suspected of violating journalistic ethics (financial ethics, on the other hand…). If there was any chance that the photo was faked, its competitors - and unlike American papers, Israeli papers have competitors - would rip it apart.
dave316 wrote:
"it would be basically like a city manager form of government a board made up of Israeli, Palestine and UN delegates would appoint a administrator of Palestine territory he would appoint officers to manage the daily affairs of Palestine life"
I think this should be given a try.
But I do not believe that Israel want to have this.
I just read some links given in this tread and came to the conclusions:
- the original picture, given by akohl, has nothing to do with the kindergarten-story.
It is about two killed/murdered/lynched Israelian solidiers, as I understand year 2000.
According to the israelian site given here in this thread.
Nevertheless, the pictures are very shocking indeed.
- There is as many pop-heads on the Israelian side as on the other side:
From the article, as I understand, Maariv:
- "At the graduation ceremony of one of the most recent kindergarten classes, the children burned the Israeli flag and cried: “In the name of the Shahid (martyr) Mohammed al-dura and the Shahida, the infant Iman al-Haju, we promise to continue with the Jihad, the resistance and the Intifada”. One of the girls raised her hands high, hands dipped in red paint, in the manner of one of the perpetrators of the Ramallah lynching, whose hands were covered in blood." End of quote.
According to the text published by this Israeli paper, there was nothing said about the Ramallah lynching, but about martyrs.
I do not find this kind of assumpitions very realible (that some blood on the hands of an infant is related 2 years back).
I came to a site “Tal G. in Jerusalem”. I have no idea where it stands, but I get the general impression from US-sites also that this line of thinking is very usual in Israel:
-
“the 4 Palestinians killed in Jenin on Friday and the 33 civilian Israelis murdered in 3 separate attacks earlier in the week.”
About “the killing” the Palestinians shooting bomb shells into a crowded market, mourners of killed settlers gone on the rampage through an Arab village You can read in:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_2059000/2059005.stm -
“the Palestinian need to be de-nazified”
(How can occupied people, that most probably does not know anything of nazies, be de-nazified?) -
"De-Nazification comes to mind. But as has been said thousands of times, that would require a decisive defeat of the entire Arab world. "
The Palestinians are called “trolls”, “ignorant morons”, “the mindless morons” etc. in this site.
It also seems obvious that CNN has stepped on some sore toes lately.
I am glad that people in our site are quite polite, but the discussions in the Jewish sites seem to be from a totally another world.
And I still ask; What should the Palestinian do?
I have asked this in two treads, but never got an answer, so I will make an own tread of it.
You mentioned a lot of things which need to be addressed. I just have time for the quote above. I trust that other posters will help explain some of your other questions.
The photo of the lynch that I posted is well known. So its not unreasonable to suspect that the resemblance was intentional. Even if it was not, holding up hands covered in blood is body language for, “I just killed someone with my bare hands and I am so proud of myself that I’m holding up my bloody hands to show you what I did.” So whether or not the allusion to the Ramalla lynch was intended is irrelevant. The message to the pupils and the rest of the community is the same.
akohl
I think many of us understood that the picture You were referring to in Your first post, was about this kindergarten case.
And still, this news-paper tells that it is about something that happened 2 years ago, but can only tell that the Palestinian spoke about their martyrs.
Was any Palestinian killed in this event 2 Years ago?
I would say that the post was, maybe not intentionally misleading, but the report in the paper Maariv is obviously that.
I am also running out of time, so I want to come back to this.
Henry B.
I’m sorry. I don’t understand what your saying.
I will explain:
elfkin477 wrote:
"<looks hard at the picture>
- The kid looks more in the 10-12 age range than 5"
He as some others believed that You were referring to the picture from year 2000 as the kindergarten picture. It is obvious, if You read the early posts in this tread, that some others also believed so.
I do not believe that this was Your intention.
Then I took a quote from Maariv.
According to Maariv they burnt a flag and then spoke about martyrs.
Then there was this scene with blood on the girls hands.
Now a questions:
- How do You bear Your hand if You have blood (paint) on it?
- Does it automatically mean that You refer to something that happened 2 years ago?
(Everytime when a statesman waves, You can take a picture of him and tell the public that he made a nazi salute. Even if he did say nothing.)
Back to the girl;
according to the paper nobody spoke anything about the event 2 years ago. But the paper wrote:
"One of the girls raised her hands high, hands dipped in red paint, in the manner of one of the perpetrators of the Ramallah lynching, whose hands were covered in blood."
End of quote.
This kind of maybe-truthful-reportages the world is filled with, nazis, communists, in fact You can read about it also in the tread: “Game of tag banned!”.
This time the halftruth is told in America. (Just do not anyone write to me that I am making untruthful paralells, just read the tread. They are making themself the paralells).
I am sick and tired of “news” that are just taken from real life and then modified “to fit the purpose”.
How would the article looked like if the headline would have been:
“Even Palestinian kindergarten is mourning for their martyrs!
5-year old girl exposes the Palestinian feelings with bloody(paint) hands!” (This I think is the Palestinian view).
I think the reporter of Maariv would have been kicked.
Better would have been to show a photo about when they burnt the flg, but sadly, I do not think that is any news.
Naturally the girl could just do that what the paper says, but why did it not then show some other (spoken) evidence or write about addittional evidence?
Or are the Palestinian got in love with mimic arts?
As I’ve seen in TV, it is hard to keep them speaking one at the time.
Once more, take 10 pictures of people in any happening, filmfestival, street carnevals or what ever. You always find one picture that fits in as news, if You just make a good text to it. And asthoningly many papers does it.
Just try yourself and You will see how easy it is.
For further reading: Gunter Wallraff’s books.
I hope You understood me now.
Btw. I have been a photographer-newspaperman-publisher etc., specializing in different cultures.
“News” are dirty business.
I don’t know all the details of that kidergarten graduation ceremony. I would also be interested in getting more details.
Having said that, it is clear that raising bloody hands is a way of expressing identification with others who have raised bloody hands. And those others who raised bloody hands did so to show supporters that they just completed an act of murder.
Yes, the picture from the year 2000 was from a real lynch which took place in Ramalla. The article about the kindergarted graduation in Gazza was from this week. I just refered to the Ramalla lynch to provide the background for those who might not have been aware that an actual lynch where a Palestinian “hero” raised his bloody hands did in fact take place.
For some reason, that lynch was partucularly disturbing, more so even than the numerous other terrorist attacks which have taken place. I suppose its because of the active role that the PA police took in the event. Instead of turning the reservists around at the checkpoint, which they obviously reached by mistake, the police officers arrested them and brought them right into the middle of a lynch mob. The other thing about it was that it was an entire community that committed the act as a collective and not just a few individuals involved in other types of attacks.
This is relevant because it explains what the recent picture of the kindergarten ceremony means to Israelis like myself who were particularly shocked by actual lynch and perhaps even more shocked by the news that such an evil act is being glorified in an educational context involving such young children.
Here is the “Islamic Charity Organization” web site from which the picture was taken. The picture, along with others, was still there as of the time of this posting.
http://www.jislamia.org/news/new04.htm
If Hamas has any sense of “PR” they’ll be pulling this web site soon, so look now and see children being taught to hate.
MHand
I looked at the pictures. Yes, they are obviously training their children for war.
Are the Jews not? I think they are, but I think they begin only when the children are more than 12 years old.
I admit, I do not know exactly. But there are many cultures were they begin at that age.
I was nine years old when I got my first elementary training in how to survive in the woods. Without a gun, just a knife, tent, etc.
(I am a Finn, not a Russian, even if I write from Russia).
So how old were You?
About Maariv.
And still, if there was nothing said about what happened 2 years ago, I would say that the news are quite “coloured”.
See my earlier post if You do not understand me.
If some group should be aware of how the press, books, fairy tales, etc., around the world has coloured, falsified etc. news or whatever stories, it should be people that have studied the history of Jews.
It has continued for hundred of years in stories and in the press as long as there has been any.
So if You do not understand it other way around, I can not help You.
If You see everything black and white, what can I say?
I have been wondering why so few people tells what the Palestinian should do? There is a tread about it, You know?
There You can also see my views, if anyone is interested.
I taught wilderness survival at a Boy Scout camp. As you said, it did not involve guns or military fatigues, and I’ll add that it did not involve killing people and raiding bloodied hands.
Yes - Israelis also “train for war”, but not until they begin their mandatory army service after High School. The 5 and 6 year-olds in those pictures were not being trainined in war; They were being trained in hate.
When Jews “train for war”, they do not dress up as Baruch Goldstein and reenact the Hebron massacre. The girl in that picture was reenacting the infamous Ramallah lynching, in which a mob lynched two Jews for no reason other than that they were Jewish. One of the murderers held up his bloodied hands to the camera, proud of his actions.
This lynching was an act that EVEN in WAR is MORALLY REPULSIVE. Is that how YOU would teach YOUR children about war – by reenacting THAT seen?!
A five year old girl holds up her bloodied hands after pretending to kill a Jew. Two five year old boys dress in black masks like their Hamas terrorist idols. A five year old boy sets fire to an Israeli flag, holding the burning flag for his friends to see. Are these our partners in peace?!
In peace?
Look at the thread:
Is Human Rights Watch a facist-muslim-communist organisation?
In that picture you can actually see quite clearly the human shaped prop used for the victims in that re-enactment.
I find it quite surprising that this thing didn’t hit the international news. I think its of major importance in terms of understanding what some of the issues are in this conflict.
I guess I should not leave this hanging…
I am refering to understanding this conflict as a battle between good and evil. Just like the war against Nazi Germany. Did it start out as a war over territory? Yes. But that dispute could have been resolved by other means had it not been for the forces of evil at play in Germany. In some ways Hamas is worse than the Nazis. At least the Nazis tried to hide what they were doing to the Jews and to others. They at least pretended to be civilized. For cryin out loud. Hamas put a that picture on their web site! I don’t think its an issue of bad PR.
If they, you will still be able to see them and show them to anyone who needs to be educated about the realities of the middle east by pointing your browser to
http://www.jr.co.il/terror/israel/index.html
This site is an excellent source of information, indexes tons of quality articles and tries to keep the memory of terror victims alive by indexing a a captioned picture of each and every one of them.