Elbows, if you had read this thread you would know that we are willing to pay for extra leg room. You and others are welcome to sit in the cheapest economy seats available.
Are you worried that if more people are willing to pay for stretch seating, there won’t be as many economy seats on a flight? I suppose that’s true, but may be something you have to deal with.
Like I said, I’ll vote with my dollars. I’m perfectly happy to spend a reasonable amount for a reasonable space.
It IS getting better. Stretch seating is becoming more available. I wonder why?
Suggesting to just upgrade to first class is just silly. That can cost 10 times as much as an economy seat. That’s if it is even available. My Wife and I often just drive. No point in flying if it’s under 1000 miles.
“There already is an option. Fly first class. Take a train, bus, car, boat, etc.” Boat service from Denver to anywhere is pretty hard to come by. And it’s REAL slow.
Did you see the post on the last page where American Airlines converted some planes to stretch economy legroom in all rows and it didn’t work out well for them?
No, it isn’t. It’s premium economy. As in, first class has the most room, business next, then premium economy, and finally economy. It’s been common for probably ten years, you must have seen it.
Seat Guru seems like a pretty good website to me. If you’ve been on flights before and know that you’re always been squished before, then you know that the average is probably smaller than you’d like. I looked up a Houston to Nashville flight, and it even says the first seat can get cold and noisy, and which seats have tray tables in the armrest or have half an armrest and that the last row has limited recline. It even has color coding for good, bad, mixed reviews, and standard seating (though for the flight I chose there are no “good” seats highlighted).
I agree that with all the many flight websites and apps out there, someone should be able to make one that shows you the seat options when you search. If Kayak (or Google Flights, or whatever other websites) can show you the prices, times, airlines, and flight numbers, I would think they should also be able to show you that the flight has 100 seats with 31" pitch and 15 seats with 34" pitch, and other general information about the plane. Then you could scroll through all the options and see while this flight might be cheaper or more convenient, this other one sounds more comfortable. I don’t know how the layout should be (or how easy the coding would be to set up) but I think it could be done, it is somewhat surprising it hasn’t been.
This is my dream, that there’d be more trains available. For some trips where a flight would be a lot quicker I’d probably still take the plane. But for some shorter trips where a flight would be just a little quicker, but a train could be more convenient and more comfortable, I’d definitely be all over that.
I’m definitely not an expert on the aviation industry, but you’re not taking into account the costs for the airline in regards to salaries, gas, maintenance and things like that. If 1000 people per day usually go from City A to City B, and you change the airplanes from 175 seat planes to 147 seat planes, then instead of 6 flights that day to accommodate everyone, there will need to be 7 flights. That will be one more flight for the airlines where they have to pay the flight crew, pay for gas, maintenance, and whatever else. I’m not sure how exactly that would affect prices, but I’m pretty sure it would.
Lets face it. Air travel in general sucks ass, and US domestic flights suck ass more than any other major part of the air travel industry. There are no good solutions because:
[ul]
[li]usually at least one major carrier is in bankruptcy or circling the drain, causing all sorts of desperate price wars making it hard to raise service levels[/li][li]the vast majority of passengers in cattle class are jjust covering overheads, and are demonstrated to only buy on price. All the profit comes from business/first, because those types DO buy on non-price factors. They will also switch in a heartbeat if they don’t get what they want, and one of the things they want most of all is to not be disturbed by proles in their cabin, eating up space and being loud. Since all the airlines put their product development and marketing resources into chasing these people, the rest of us usually get dick.[/li][li]no adequate information exists. Even seatguru sucks because it lacks essential information like how comfy the seats are, what kind of headrest they have, how good the entertainment is, whether the seat is deep (and eats lots of inches out of a 35"pitch) or super-modern (skinny back or reclining under the seat in front, either of which would make a 34" pitch comfortable). It also can’t tell you whether the airline has overbooked (upgrade? downgrade? standby for next flight? what fun!), or had an equipment problem and swapped out the usual plane for a much nicer one or some vomit-stained bucket of bolts they have kept hidden behind a hangar for ten years. Too much information needed, too few sources.[/li][li]you are trapped in a tube with hundreds of other people and the odds are good many of them will be assholes[/li][li]the entire aeroplane environment, from the dry air to the prevalence of alcohol to the arbitrary interruptions to routine is calculated to put people on their worst behavior[/li][li]as a prelude, everyone has to deal with security, and the usual anticipation of an unpleasant experience coming to an end is tempered with the thought of having to deal with baggage reclaim and, for many, getting on another flight. So people are cranky at the start AND the end.[/li][/ul]
Just avoid flying if at all possible and if you do fly, expect every moment of it to be hell, like being stuck on a non-flushing toilet for ten hours with four drunken frat boys sharing your cubicle, a psychotic meth head banging on the cubicle door, and occasional random people trying to sell you stale snacks or wal-mart perfume under the partition for $50 a throw. Usually it wont be **quite **that bad and you’ll feel like you’ve got ahead of the game.
Alternatively, do your flying outside the US where you can **occasionally **get decent service for a decent price.
I heard on the radio today that yet another flight was re-routed, or whatever the term is, because of an argument over putting the seat back. This time it was someone trying to rest their head on the tray table, similar to what happened to one of the posters here.
Though like I said, I heard this on the radio, and don’t have a cite (link to a website or similar.)
I guess that this kind of nastiness and fighting could be avoided if, before putting the seat back, the person putting the seat back checked behind them and maybe also asked the person behind them if it was okay.
And after reading this thread, why in the world would anyone think that politely asking the person behind them was ok with the seat being reclined a bit was an option? It’s everyone’s god given right to recline as much as they want without any consideration for other passengers, amiright?
I was on a Virgin flight a couple of years ago, and the seats reclined more than any I’ve ever seen before (or since). I’m 6’1" and it was uncomfortable enough when the guy in front of me leaned back, but the funny thing was that the seat had reclined so much that I couldn’t look at the TV embedded in the headrest, except at an oblique angle. That was a thoroughly unpleasant seven hours.
On Virgin flights, the TV usually pivots, so that if the seat reclines, you can push on the top of the TV, which pivots the bottom out and leaves the TV flat relative to where it was before the recline.
How do you sell something nobody knows exists? I never saw an ad for it. Not that it didn’t happen I just don’t remember it.
You’ll have to show me a diagram because every picture I’ve seen is a business class arrangement which is both wider and more legroom than economy. I was suggesting more leg room but with the same cross section of seating. It puts more seats on the plane.
As it stands now airliners are hard pressed to fill the average flight. If they can fill the flight with the same number of people, make them HAPPY with the service and get more money then I think it’s a marketing plan. It’s not going to work for every airline because there’s always going to be a market for Walmart flyers. But not everybody shops at Walmart.
The kicker in all of this is the hub system of airline travel. Many of the flights are hub to hub so nobody is stuck on an airplane for a long period of time. It’s the long flights that need the extra leg room and reclining seats. It requires properly defining the concept of “value” when selling a product. What’s it worth to you to get a nice meal and arrive without requiring back or knee surgery?
I am not sure where you are getting that, I may just be flying popular routes but every single one of them I have taken in the least year or more has been at capacity with standby passengers waiting and I fly over 100 segments a year. I could have flown free an indefinite number of times in the future if I just gave up my seat but I couldn’t do that because I mainly travel for work or have my kids with me. The routes that I fly are always completely full with the exception of one Costa Rican bush small plane.
Airlines are having no trouble filling seats these days. They are getting quite good at incentive pricing. Large jets have the capability to lift as many people and small pieces of luggage as you can close the door on. That is the basic issue. The marginal cost to stuff additional people in is almost nothing per passenger mile yet they can get more revenue by seeing how much passengers can tolerate. If you could stack passengers like cord wood, they wood make even more money and the plane could still fly just fine. All of that adds up to a business versus logistics nightmare and something has to give at some point.
The More Room Throughout Coach was on from early 2000 until mid-2003 and I remember it being advertised and being part of their promo materials. Probably a matter of us being in different media markets.
It died in the post-9/11 period when new managers figured that the low-fare carriers were eating too much into business. AA was at a low load factor even with the 2 inches extra pitch.
See the three links I put on post #218 to seatmaps that show the location of premium economy sections as per your description. Notice that they are not there instead of the Business/First classes, but rather as a less-dense part of Coach.
Just the opposite. According to the Bureau of Transportation Statistics, airlines sold 84% of their seats on domestic flights this year, compared to 81% five years ago, and 74% ten years ago. Cite.
I am not sure how many times this point has been referenced in this thread, but I will just hammer it again. Consumers cannot choose to go with an airline with a better seat arrangement, if they do not have that information at the time they purchase their tickets.
My choice of airline is usually one of that last things I consider when flying–times and locations are more important. If when making that final choice between airlines that meet my critical needs, I could choose to pay $30 more for 2" more space, or a guaranteed aisle seat, or an exit row, or whatever, I would do so. That airline would get my business and my extra money. Sadly, the systems do not work that way. There is no way for me to favor an airline that provides better seating, because that information is not part of ticketing.
But all those choices ARE available for evaluation before you buy – only that it’s two thirds into the airline’s booking pages instead of on the front of the Kayak/Orbitz/Expedia comparison page. Like I mentioned, my pattern is to look up what flights and fares are available at one of those pages, then in another window/tab I open seatguru to find out what are the general seating arrangements for those flights thst interest me, then on yet another window/tab I go to the actual airline’s site to start a booking . If when I get to the proper step in the process I find that my preferences are sold out or too highly priced, I can either say " oh, well" and book a regular seat or back off and look for another flight and it only cost me five to ten minutes’ time.
Yes, there is a way to favor an airline with better seating options. I understand you’re not familiar with it, but that doesn’t mean it’s impossible. Here are a few strategies that I use; some of them may be applicable to you and some not. I’m not trying to hold your hand and book your tickets for you, my intent is to show how it can be done.
As a frequent flier, I know that I will get complimentary upgrades to Economy Plus on United. So, I book on United whenever that is feasible.
I know by experience or by looking on seatguru.com that some airlines do better on legroom than other airlines. For example, JetBlue and Virgin America tend to be better; Spirit and Ryanair are clearly the worst.
When you book your ticket on nearly any airline, one of the last options is to choose your seat. I always do this rather than have the airline assign the seat. The webpage on seat selection will show if premium seats are available, and how much extra they will cost. This applies to premium economy or exit row seats.
Especially for long-haul flights, when choosing my seat I will go to seatguru.com, enter the flight numbers, and see if some seats have additional features (maybe the seats in row 8 have a little extra room for some reason of aircraft configuation, but seats in row 11 have a electronic box on the floor that interferes with legroom, etc). It takes about 20 seconds to navigate seatguru to find this information.
This is how you can do better in seat selection. Obviously, despite what some have said here, the vast majority of people, given the choice among price, schedule, and service (such as more legroom), prioritize price and schedule. This is a big part of the reason that American Airlines’ experiment with giving everyone more legroom and charging everyone more for tickets did not work out.
If you want to prioritize comfort and schedule, there’s ways to do it, but it means giving up some on price. If you want to prioritize price and comfort, there’s probably less opportunity to do so, but certainly you’ll have to give a lot on schedule (such as taking red-eye flights that might have fewer passengers).
So, you agree that the information is not present on the page people are normally looking at when they are choosing which airline/flight on which to fly, correct? The information may be somewhere, but if it is not present at the key decision making moment, it does little good (for most people).
