I flew once where a guy put his feet under my seat and in the area where my feet went. Wtf! I said you can’t put your feet there. He said tough:confused: I’m a polite traveller. So I stomped on them:D
Airplanes aren’t making seats smaller because they are evil grinches. People buy tickets based on price. Full stop. As soon as people start buying on comfort, they will gladly offer them (and indeed a small number do with economy plus).
But when you, like me, decide to buy a ticket based on price, and then you want me to give you my space because you want more comfort- cheese that. I like cheap tickets. You like cheap tickets. You don’t get both the cheap ticket and your neighbors reclining space.
I totally agree. It becomes painful sitting there all squashed up.
The most common solution that people have proposed isn’t to raise prices or even force an increase in seat space. It is to simply either lock the seats at the same angle all the time or have restrictions that the crew can enforce as to when they can be used (less than full flights, overnight flights etc.).
None of that is radical or doesn’t fit with other business policies or consumer protection laws. People used to be able to do a lot of things on planes that they can’t now just because the standards had to be changed for the good and safety of all. Some airlines like Spirit already lock their seats in place and charge everything a la carte. I thought it would be a shitty airline until I was forced to take it earlier this year and found that it was one of the best ones in the U.S. at least in terms of comfort and everything else. You may tell me just to take Spirit all the time then. I can’t. I have to travel constantly for work and not only do you have to take the lowest price ticket available across any airline, you also cannot even upgrade to economy plus even if you pay for it yourself (it screws up the accounting apparently).
I am surprised that a lot of free market conservatives and liberals somehow flipped sides on this issue. One reason I am not so gung-ho on this issue in free market terms is because it usually isn’t one. You don’t always have control of what seat you get or even have a real choice on when and where you go. You may even have a reservation for an assigned seat and then weather or mechanical failure puts you into a seat that would make David Blaine blush. The result for a tall person when that happens is true pain when that seat comes back if you aren’t watching for it.
I really don’t think some of you understand that. It isn’t about space to spread out much. It is about getting hit in an unusually vulnerable area because of a design problem with the seats themselves. Don’t you think something would be done if an airline had a policy that anyone could whack the men in the nuts at random times with a stick or kick women in the shins as they walked down the aisle? It is very close to the same thing for taller people when someone crashes back into their knees. There is no other policy that not only encourages that type of aggression but also has staunch defenders of the practice because they don’t have enough personal experience to know how truly painful it can be and will be if you fly frequently.
I always ease my seat back gently, but if it reclines, it’s going back. If not, I am in for at least 3 days of agony, thanks to my scoliosis. I truly cannot sit upright for hours at a time without paying a hefty price. I’m sorry the seats don’t give everyone enough room, but neither of us is going to be comfortable anyway.
This is the problem - in addition to the three such seats, only those the Flight Attendants deem physically able to push open the door are allowed to sit in them.
(been there)
So, all the anti-recliners want one of the three seats and not all of them are strong healthy types (sorry granny, no exit aisle seat for you).
If the public didn’t demand prices which cut airline profits to the bone (United and American have reported losses for years now (yes, I know: it’s how you you play a tax game), maybe the seats would be wider and the spacing increased.
Remember when only the rich flew, and one dressed properly for such an exotic event?
The planes had individual air vents and lights for each seat?
You want to fly for less than the cost of fuel, expect to be packed in like sardines.
Whatever happened to Business Class - a mid-step from coach to First Class?
[Quote=Grestarian]
A passenger does not have the right to tamper with the functionality of the aircraft. That includes the seats.
[/Quote]
Actually, the seats are part of the safety gear, along with the floatable seat cushion and the waist-level seat belt. One of the reasons the flight attendants harass everyone about sitting upright and folding up the trays (and buckling up) during take-off and landing is because optimal safety is achieved in that position.
I doubt inserting a knee-saver is akin to messing with the oxygen masks. It’s probably more like screwing around with the latch for the overhead bin (not quite so dangerous).
I’ll check with a friend who is a flight attendant and get a specific *why *regarding the stance on the Knee Savers, but I suspect they’re considered a liability issue if people can’t get their trays up quickly enough when sudden turbulence is encountered.
Stay tuned…
–G!
I suspect the actual primary reason, regardless of party line, is “we don’t want to deal with arguments over it”.
Having gone back to read stuff in the middle that I didn’t have time for, I think GargoyleWB (post #90) did a better (structurally based) explanation of why the KDs are a bad product idea.
Jophiel probably has the ultimate in-practice justification in the note above.
–G!
Really?
people with back problems have a short-term fix and that’s to use the seats as they were intended to be used.
If someone is too tall or wide for the economy seats then they should upgrade to accommodate their needs.
Did you fail to notice that Spirit gives you 10% less legroom than COPA, which you complained about earlier? I can’t imagine how you think that a 28 inch pitch - the smallest of all US airlines - is one of your best in terms of comfort, while a 31 inch pitch on another airline (which is about 5% less than most US carriers) is intolerable. This just doesn’t make sense.
I’m 5’8.5" and occasionally face issues with a reclined seat’s tray pushing painfully into my knees. I say the issue is with the plane, since I assert I am not abnormally large for an adult female. Average-height people ought to be able to fit into economy seats without pain even if the person in front reclines.
I have no idea how many times I have to explain this but I will try again. That is an option that you don’t always have the ability to control. There are only a limited number or seats with decent legroom. Rerouting plus circumstances can and will take away those options. The airlines have your bags in the system and you can’t just walk away from them or the connecting airport just like you can for other businesses. That is the part that makes it fundamentally different from every other business out there. You are part customer but mostly just a hostage once you are in mid-trip especially when things go even slightly eschew.
Small seats are not the real issue. I take very large jets, regional planes, fly tiny planes myself and my favorite flight in the last few months was a true bush plane in Costa Rica. The small planes and seats are not a problem at all because the seats are only one across and there is not a threat that someone is going to slam something into your knees if you stop paying attention to the threat to look out the window. It is generally the larger commercial jets that are the problem and not the smaller planes. They have the payload capacity and the width to stuff as many people in as they can because passenger weight carrying capacity is generally a whole lot more than they have the space to fill but they can still try as hard as they can to stuff that thing to the limit.
I am only slightly tall at a little less than 6’2 at my last physical a few months ago and I am not fat at all. I am also very fit and flexible. I am definitely on the high-end of the bell curve in terms of height but also nothing impressive or notable and I certainly don’t spill over into any other seats except at the shoulder level. There is no other business that just says, ‘Screw it, let’s design our accommodations for the bottom 95% of our customers only because what is several hundred million * about .05 again? Who knows and who cares, it can’t be that many so they will just have to deal with it personally because anyone over 6 feet tall must be some freak of nature anyway.’
It is amazing that the SDMB of all places is so closed-minded on this issue. People here can talk about the intricacies of just about any arcane subject for days on end yet some people can’t accept that there might be both an engineering and policy problem with some airline seating.
What I am hearing some smart people say if that the best engineers in the world have looked at this problem repeatedly and determined that the existing seat designs are the absolute best that they can be, there is no better way to maximize space in a closed environment any more than they are now and there are no policy issues that can address the repeated complaints from taller passengers at all. Mankind has done the absolute best that it can do across all airlines and there is no room for future improvement even on a small scale. Do I have that right?
I understand your point but that’s not practical and is unsafe. These two entitled fools (and they were BOTH acting like entitled fools) are simply going to keep escalating until an intervention occurs. Since obviously neither respects the flight attendants or is willing to comply with directions, that requires an outside presence.
In the cramped confines of an aircraft, the altercation needs to be ended immediately and the fastest way to do that, and make the point to both that they are in big trouble (thus settling down the OTHER passengers getting spun up by all the ruckus) is to divert and land immediately.
As to the knee defender, I’ve seen them, and I’m not that much of a fan. Then again, I don’t believe seats in economy should be able to recline more than 2in. That’s enough to alleviate some back discomfort and not enough to significantly impact the limited space in the row behind.
I will say that while eating, your seat should be up. The flight attendants should be making this request (and most are very good about doing so). If they do not, I will (and have) asked people to put their seats upright while we eat, because otherwise they’re A) leaning forward in order to eat and not using the reclined space and B) it’s damnably difficult to eat with the seat reclined in your face. These are on obviously longer flights, not the peanut bag runs.
Regards,
-Bouncer-
It makes perfect sense when you realize they gave me an exit row seat with much more space when they saw I was too tall for one of their standard seats for no extra cost. It was one of many strategies that airlines could use if they wanted to. I could have made myself fit in a standard seat as well as long as I knew what the plan would be and it would not suddenly change into something much worse mid-flight.
Yeah, but since you’re a frequent flyer (as am I), we both know that those seats are gobbled up by premier tier FFs and/or given away to crew or deadheaders. Heck the airlines usually won’t even let you TRY to book those seats via the travel websites unless you’re above base FF tier.
And it’s guaranteed that you will have a seatmate or that someone will jump into any open exit row seat (like that ever happens) once the door is closed.
Regards,
-Bouncer-
Rest assured that I am not ever going to buy or ever use a Knee-Defender but the product is called that for a reason. It isn’t called a Space-Defender. It was developed for the purpose of not getting hurt intentionally or unintentionally by the airplane seat in front of you. The fact that there is a market for it indicates that there is a real problem with that issue for taller people and airline execs need to listen to that compliant.
For a nation that can develop everything from moon landings to IPads to Chia pets, I am fairly certain that our engineers and scientists can come up with better solutions. That is somewhat of a joke but not really. I am partially a human factors engineer by trade now too as well as an aviation enthusiast and I may even to be able to come up with better designs myself if I try hard enough but I would like to believe that there are people much better qualified to do that than I am and will run with the idea.
You should be able to do much better than anything we have now if you have three dimensional and mathematical space models to work with. I understand perfectly that there is a whole lot of bureaucracy and certification work involved but it sounds like they just grabbed the person from the Lazy-Boy team circa 1960 to design the actual functionality of existing airline seats and it isn’t working out well for anyone. I am certain that a completely modern redesign using the best minds could do much better.
When you get extra legroom for free it is great customer service that solves your problem; when someone suggests that you purchase seats with extra legroom in advance it is a “stupid” and “hopelessly naive” idea - is that really what you’re trying to say?
You think airline seats will be more comfortable in the future?
If the tray is touching your knees it’s broken.
That is a terrible design but it does have the right idea in general.
I think it is time for me to start generating some engineering drawings. You have 3 dimensions and several axises of control for in the same space that exists today that require no major modifications to airliners. This design field is one of the most lucrative problems that any math, engineering (or maybe architecture) students could ever solve yet few people seem to be working on it. I am 100% confident that it can be improved upon because all we have now is the equivalent of fat padded lawn chairs with backs in front of you that can take out knees and destroy laptops just because a fat lady gets a little tired.
I do not believe that that air travel will ever be truly comfortable for discounted tickets again but this is one of the major ways that that geometry and design experts can make a true breakthrough.