Well, I’m glad that’s cleared up. Another reason to not watch basketball for me. I realize people differ, but I’ve seen blowout games in other sports, and I don’t think it’s perceived as deliberately taunting. Embarassing? Yeah, sure. But it’s not the fault of the people winning, it’s the fault of the people losing. If you can’t handle losing a game, get better or get out.
You know what’s insulting? Paying the highest ticket prices in the league to watch a game featuring the highest paid players in the league, seeing them get whooped, to find out that they only give a crap about what’s happening because they’re being “shown up” by the other team. How about getting mad and putting the effort in when you’re down 20 with 5 minutes to go?
What’s insulting is for your GM to fire a coach (Don Cheney) mid season because he can’t make the team with the league’s highest payroll win. Replace him with future Hall of Famer, All Time Winningest Coach, Lenny Wilkens, only to fire him the next season, mid season because HE can’t coach this team properly. Then you go out and hire future Hall of Famer, Just Won the Championship, coach Larry Brown and fire HIM after a year because he apparently forgot how to coach over the summer. Luckily, they had Non Hall of Famer, Can’t Get Out of the First Round, Isiah Thomas to step in and continue to coach the team to the murky depths.
Isiah, you can’t be disrespected when you haven’t done a single thing in your post playing days to earn respect. This is the very definition of punk behavior. Doing nothing of note, nothing worthwhile, and still demanding respect under the threat of violence.
It’s not like this is a regular occurrence. Games are won and lost by 25 points on a regular basis, and the losing team rarely complains about sportsmanship. It’s not that the Nuggets were winning by too much, it’s that they were deliberately taunting, in a way. The Nuggets had their starting five in the game with a minute left and up by 19 points, and JR Smith had just made a big display with a 180-degree dunk on a breakaway. In other words, for whatever it’s worth, this was a case where the Nuggets were making a point to rub it in the Knicks’ faces. In those kinds of situations, warning the other team’s star player “don’t go into the lane right now” kind of does make sense. There’s nothing wrong with a hard foul done properly – it can certainly be very dangerous if it’s not handled the “right” way, but hammering a guy going in for a layup is standard fare for an NBA player. The fact that Carmelo Anthony ended up throwing a punch doesn’t retroactively make the Knicks’ taking offense unjustified. Now, if somebody feels like it’s irrational to treat leaving the starters in as an insult, I can’t help you with that, other than to say that in the culture of competitive basketball, Karl was clearly sending a message.
As long as I’m here, can I just say that I’ve seen enough of the word “thug” in regard to professional athletes? Christ, if this exact sequence had happened 50 years ago (which it would have), it would have just been another example of how tough guys like Jungle Jim Loscutoff (whose number was retired, for god’s sake) were. I remember reading a book written by a former NBA referee where he told of players trading punches behind the ref’s back all game long. It was presented in a kind of “boys will be boys” fashion, basically celebrating the toughness and competitive nature of the players. And this was the referee talking. Now when the same stuff happens, it’s indicative of how far society has fallen, and it becomes imperative that the NBA make a big display out of suspending everyone involved for as many games as possible. I wonder why that is?
Sorry, but that’s just complete bullshit. The Nuggets hadn’t scored a point in three minutes and had three guys at the scorers table waiting to go in. The Knicks threw the ball away and Denver had a breakaway - what are they supposed to do? Run out of bounds? Maybe they hold up if there are 10 seconds left, but not if there’s two minutes.
Are you trying to tell me that there was no point at which Karl could’ve safely pulled his starters before there was a minute left in the game?
I just checked the game log on ESPN, at 4min to go, the score was 114 - 96. At 1:15 to go (when the fight happened) the score was 119 - 100. In 3 minutes of “running up the score” and “showing up” the Knicks they scored 5 points to the Knicks 4. Denver (if I’m reading the chart right) seemed to run down the clock during their possessions, and got a couple of fouls and rebounds on offense. At 7 minutes to go in the game, the score was 110 - 90. In the 6 minutes to the fight, the Nuggets scored 9 points to the Knicks 10.
Running up the score, my ass. All Karl did was not substitute his scrubs and let the Knicks walk all over them for the last few minutes.
Well, since nobody else who you could have been arguing but me has posted since your last post, I gather you’re talking to me? I didn’t say they ran up the score. I said Karl left his starters in in a blowout.
Can’t we pull Karl Malone out of retirement to elbow Thomas in the head again? Isiah Thomas has had this thuggish mentality forever; it’s just more galling to me now because his coaching chops don’t back it up like his playing skills did.
At 114-96 with four minutes to play, with the 3-pointer, it is conceivable a team could come back. A few years back the Lakers had the Bulls down 13 with four to play and lost. My question is, how many dead ball opportunities were there after the three minute mark or so, for Karl to pull the starters.
And JC, your implied point that in an NBA fight in 2006 the players are called thugs because their black is an interesting one. I do think people tend to overstate things in today’s society. I mean Larry Bird and Dr. J once exchanged punches, and no one called them thugs. I think people think “thug” when they see someone with many tattoos, braids, large gold chains, etc.
Actually, Jimmy, I was more commenting as an aside to Lamar’s post than responding directly to you. His post got me interested in seeing exactly when people did and didn’t score, to either confirm or refute Thomas’ allegations of running up the score.
Karl did leave his starters in, but I don’t think that alone constitutes an unsportsmanlike situation, and I’m usually on the “pro sportsmanship” side of these arguments. Leaving starters in and directing them to score early and often can be unsportsmanlike. Karl’s team did not, to my thinking, make any attempt to widen the deficit, or do anything other than ensure the Knicks didn’t start a comeback. Hell, Reggie Miller scored 8 points in less than 10 seconds against the Knicks, why should Karl let the Knicks get NEAR 10 points behind at any point in the game? That can turn around on you in a hearbeat.
So has anybody taped this? I saw it twice, and the second time, I thought that the sequence went:
- Hard foul on a breakaway, but not the most dangerous foul of the season
- foulee gets up mad, and a few players from each time come over. Six or seven guys standing around, sticking their chests out, and jawing, but no real contact. Kind of situation that often happens after a hard foul, and usually ends with the referees moving everyone apart.
- player (I didn’t even manage to notice which team) comes barrelling in from off camera at high speed, right into opposing player, taking him down.
- melee ensues.
Did anybody see it happen this way, and if so notice who the mystery catalyst-man was?
It was Nate Robinson.
Karl is under no obligation to pull his players regardless of what the score was. Maybe he wanted them to work on certain things. Maybe he had seen his team blow big leads and wanted to get them used to playing with them. Maybe he hates Isaiah and wanted to rub it in his face. Makes no difference, he can play whomever he wants whenever he wants. If you don’t want your opponent running up the score, I recommend you work on stopping them. The hard foul was totally uncalled for.
Now of course, the above applies only to professional sports, which ostensibly have a level playing field. If you are talking about college or lower level sports, I definitely think some care should be taken not to humiliate your opponent. If you are a Div-1 powerhouse playing some patsy and you are winning a game by 70 points, there’s no need to be chucking up 3s, doing allyoop reverse dunks, etc. Have some class. In pro sports though, everyones fair game. You don’t like what we are legally doing, find a legal way to stop it.
Nate Robinson was the mystery man in question. But to say that the hard foul was not the most dangerous this season is wrong. Mardy Collins (the guy doing the fouling) had J.R. Smith in a headlock. I would have been pissed, too.