Well, that could impact their ability to switch agencies all right. If their local customers demand Mr. Hassid and only him, they may not be able to switch agencies, practically speaking.
That said, there are definitely and without question agencies out there who would not be quite so - intrusive.
I think it’s more that a lot of haredi and Chassidic rabbis go out of their way to control almost every aspect of their congregations’ lives. This is not because the certifier is concerned that the restaurant will do something to make their food treif. This is because the certifier wants to make sure that his Chassid aren’t exposed to or influenced by immorality or indecency, and he can do that by refusing kosher certification to restaurants where the behavior of the guests don’t meet his moral standards. This isn’t about the food.
I don’t take the article’s tone the way you do. I think it’s trying to show the cultural perspective of the Hasidic community and the restaurant’s experiences in balancing that with the general New York culture.
Ever been to Asia? I have, and one of the things I found was that what we call Chinese food in the United States has little to do with actual Chinese food.
So suppose there was an organization going around to Chinese restaurants in the United States saying, “What you have might not be truly authentic Chinese food. Unless you do this, this and this and let us watch, we’re not going to certify you with our Gold Star for Authentic Chinese Food.”
Any organization would be within their rights to do so. One could argue that it would be similar to a Zagat’s guide rating. But that doesn’t stop it from being dickish.
As long as it’s voluntary, it’s not really dickish. That’s like saying that any inspection agency that has standards is being dickish for not maintaining those standards.
Yeah, their standards set my teeth on edge. But I’m not that place’s normal customer. And I’m not the owner of that place. And I’m not the rabbi. If the owner wants (or thinks he must in order to appease the majority of his potential customers) to contract with that rabbi to certify his restaurant, then the rabbi is not screwing the owner over or anything. Now, if the city of New York passed an ordinance that all restaurants must be certified by a Hasidic rabbi for kashrut, then yeah, I have a problem with it.
Jesus never had to deal with Brooklyn.
Not Randall Flagg, the Walkin’ Dude? I was thinking about vampires and low men hiding out in kosher restaurants for the thread. THAT makes it hard to concentrate.
What makes it dickish, though is that the organization’s standards for certification go beyond the rules of kashrut. So, the kitchen could be entirely kosher, but this rabbi won’t certify it because some couple in the dining room is holding hands.
The people who are being screwed over are the non-frum people who want to keep kosher, because they won’t be able to go to this restaurant now without obeying frum rules.
That’s STILL not dickish, though, because the restaurant owner has the option of contracting with another certification group, with looser standards. If the owner feels that to do so would prevent his regular customers from eating at his restaurant, then it’s STILL voluntary and therefore not dickish, because his regulars apparently WANT the standard that this rabbi’s group holds.
Mode of dress and public behavior in a private establishment are not constitutional issues. If this rabbi were acting like the Israeli haredi and throwing rocks at people who dressed like this woman (as some of the haredi do to people driving on the Sabbath), then yes, it would be dickish (and illegal in the US).
Well…depends.
Marley23 said she found nothing on their website to indicate behavior of patrons was a part of the certification. If that is so (and I accept her word on it) then the rabbi is on a power trip making up rules as he goes along. Presumably the restaurant tries to abide by the dietary laws specified by this group for certification. Now the rabbi is moving the goalposts.
On the flip side I would presume the rabbi probably thinks certification denotes a place where people of his order can go to have a meal that they would be comfortable at. This would include not only the food being kosher but the atmosphere as well. Someone apparently complained to him about the clientele that day.
Personally if it was about more than the dietary requirements then the organization should specify that so those seeking the certification know the deal. Changing the rules mid-stream is bogus.
Sounds like the neighborhood is changing and the rabbi is getting more hardline. That happens often when demographics change anywhere.
The restaurant owner needs to decide to capitulate or play a game of chicken with the rabbi and face him down. There will be many considerations for the owner to make. In the end the rabbi can demand whatever he wants to demand and the owner can decide to abide by that or tell the rabbi to go pound sand.
To take the religious aspect out of it, imagine if there were an organization that certified restaurants as “vegan” or “cruelty-free” or something. I would totally defend the right of such an organization to exist, but if I found out that the only way you could get a “vegan” certificate was if your customers looked hip and counter-culture enough–then yeah, I would think they were kind of a dick organization because they were piggy-backing on one deeply held set of beliefs to push another agenda.
Agreed with this. It really all depends on whether the behavior/dress code part of the certification was known and codified or whether the rabbi was just arbitrarily adding that into his criteria. I was assuming that it was known and codified, that the rabbi’s particular subsubsubgroup of Hasidim had those added rules for an establishment to be considered suitable for patronage.
Well, be fair. This religious order has lots of rules beyond dietary and they are not secret. So, telling someone they need to enforce a dress code that abides by their rules that is not dickish. One would probably expect that.
My issue is making that a rule on the spot. If such rules were not listed as necessary for certification and then the rabbi comes in one night and demands all of a sudden this is necessary for certification than that is a dick move. The guy was playing by the rules and the rabbi changed the rules. Dress codes may have been a part of their order for ages but if not spelled out as a requirement for the cert then that is the fault of the certifying organization and not the restaurant.
I wonder if they could enforce behavior rules? For example I go there with my girlfriend and we are dressed appropriately but we hold hands while there or I kiss her (not full-on makeout) or something.
Anyway, in the end dress codes have been enforced for ages (long as I can remember) and either no one has challenged them in court or the courts are ok with dress codes. So, if you want to offer certifications that hipsters dressed appropriately patronize a given place knock yourself out. If someone cares about that cert that is their choice.
What if the cruelty-free certification organization claimed that they were getting complaints from vegans that too many patrons were coming in wearing leather clothing?
I know it’s Friday night. Are there different levels of kosher or would a Reform rabbi and a Hasidic rabbi follow the same rules for inspecting the kitchen?
I’m not saying it’s unconstitutional. I’m saying it’s dickish. And the reason it’s dickish is that all of the frum crap has nothing to do with kashrut, and this is the kind of crap that the frum always pull. And, in practice, the owner doesn’t have a choice. If he gets certified by another certifying agency, the rabbi will tell his followers not to go to the restaurant, and his followers won’t, because Hassidic communities don’t disobey their Rebbes.
All the kosher certifying organizations are Orthodox.
Thanks, Capt’n.
Okay. I see what you’re saying now.
He. And I wouldn’t say the rabbi is making up rules as he goes along. I think it’s more accurate to say that he is trying to make sure this restaurant is complying with the standards of that Hasidic community in addition to kosher rules. Restaurants that cater only to the local Hasidim probably don’t have a problem with that, but Basil would. It could alienate their non-Hasidic clientele. So I don’t think he’s made anything up, but it sounds like he’s going beyond the letter of the law. That probably wouldn’t happen if the restaurant wasn’t in his backyard. And I think Captain Amazing is right that the rabbi has the restaurant over a barrel here.