Got to run, see you guys tomorrow. Hope to be able to respond.
In other words, you don’t think Kuzari works either.
Abele, are you going to answer post 82, or is it that you can’t answer?
I was reading the following (from here) and I thought of this thread. Abele, does this fit the criteria or does it not because it hasn’t hit the X number of people threshold?
Were those miracles continuously commemorated? Were the commemorations difficult? If not, then it doesn’t fit the criteria.
See, there is a very specific set of criteria that makes something true. So specific, in fact, that the only things that pass the test are the stories of Exodus and, maybe, the story of the destruction of the Temple.
As far as I can tell, it works something like this: I have here the only “box” in the world. It’s made of cardboard, brown, and is 4 inches by 6 inches by 5 inches.
Aha, you say, I also have a box.
Oh yeah? Well, is it 4 inches by 6 inches by 5 inches? Made of cardboard, and brown?
Well, no, it’s actually 4.5 inches by 6 inches by 5 inches. OK, how about this other box that’s precisely 4x6x5? Oh, it’s made of wood. What about this other one, made of cardboard and 4x6x5. Oh, it’s painted red. Darn it. I guess you have have the only actual box.
The problem, in the first place, of citing Herotodus, is that it is difficult to ascertain whether anyone actually believed him. Did the Greeks actually believe Herotodus’ nonsense? A Greek scholar has informed me, via email, that there is no evidence that the Greeks believed his nonsense.
Even if the Greeks trusted Herotodus, he does not mention a number of witnesses. So, no, I don’t see how it is relevant to Kuzari in the first place. How many people surrounded the distant Delphi shrine, while it was being assaulted by ENEMY forces. Twenty? Thirty? None?
When I refer to the commemorations of the exodus, I am not making up a new category. *I am merely pointing out, what is already obvious to many of you, that any prophet who claimed that God initiated hundreds of **daily *commemorations would have to explain to the Jews why none of them have ever heard of them. These commemorations make the Exodus and the Sinai miracles an “unfogettable national event.” It makes it particularly difficult for a prophet to invent such a false history.
You are, or anyway your proof does. But since you’re acknowledging you don’t find it convincing either, it doesn’t matter much.
Do you really think that you are going to win a debate by putting words into my mouth? I said that the christian miracles come the closest to refuting the Kuzari principle, not that it comes close, IN ANY SENSE AT ALL, to Kuzari. Kinda like someone who says that Alpha Centauri is the closest star to the earth does not imply that it is close to earth.
All I am pointing out is that the commemorations make it much, much harder for the history to have been falsly-accepted by the Jews. So when you cite a myth which does not have commemorations you, in no way at all, are implying that my evidence is fallible. And, let’s not forget, that’s what we are here for: to see whether anything even remotely similar to my evidence has shown itself to be fallible.
I think you lost the debate long ago. But I’m pointing out that you said the Christian stories are close, but that you don’t believe in Christianity for other reasons. Reasons that have nothing to do with how close they come, or don’t come, to meeting your standard. Further, you said that even if you had much stronger evidence that mythology - direct firsthand evidence - you wouldn’t believe in Jesus anyway.
And you’re wrong about that.
The answer is yes, it has. And people have been saying this since your first few posts: you are trying to define your terms so narrowly that nothing else qualifies as similar. Nobody’s buying it.
It’s the No True Scotsman of metaphysics.
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The reason I wouldn’t believe in Jesus – and the evidence for his miracles is very weak – is that the Jewish Sanhedrin in the time of Jesus (and almost all, if not all, of the rabbis in the time of Jesus) ruled that we should not follow him. Why? I don’t know why. But, the fact is, that the Sanhedrin has the final word, and their word is: This man is a fraud. Could Sanhedrin have made a mistake? Sure. But that doesn’t make their decision less-binding.
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Second, I am not defining my terms narrowly at all. It’s not like I’m asking for 613 commemorations, and if you give me an event which only had 612 you lose. It’s not like I’m asking for 2.5 million witnesses exactly. I am merely asking for something even remotely similar.
100,000 people witnessing an event and then keeping even one commemoration (not 613), of an event that we can be sure wasn’t the product of a hallucination or natural mistake, would be enough for me. Am I really being that narrow? You can’t even find me an event that has 1/25th of the amount of people that I am presenting, let alone the fact that you haven’t presented even one commemoration? How am I being narrow?
The Sun is the closest star to Earth.
Commemorations didn’t happen until centuries after the events were said to. Also, the events didn’t happen.
What you need to realize, is that some ancient Jewish person made up a story about grand origins. The ignorant, primitive, animal sacrificers living with that person believed it. It surely isn’t hard to convince people of something like this, considering that you, a modern, educated person can hold such rubbish as true. People don’t question their religious beliefs. Look at your own actions, you ignore basic logic and reasoning because the religion is too important for you to risk really examining it. Ancient peoples were just as blinded.
Again, you’re confirming evidence doesn’t matter to you. This is a matter of faith.
And yet you’ve come up with an excuse for dozens of counterexamples. This one wasn’t experiences by a whole nation, that one didn’t have enough witnesses, not everyone believes this one, etc.
You’ve never presented any evidence your number is accurate, and you’ve been repeatedly presented with a lot of evidence that it isn’t. There’s no reason to accept the figure. Your response to this has also been a series of excuses, including miracles and ‘they didn’t look in every single spot in the desert.’
I never claimed that my numbers were accurate! As I’m sure you have realized, the proof isn’t based on whether the numbers were, or are, accurate. The point is that jpeople believed that millions of their ancestors were at an event. That belief has never shown itself to be false; people have never been wrong about these types of beliefs. You can’t even show me a belief of 1/25 of the number of people, and yet you accuse me of narrowly defining my terms. Is asking for 1/25 being narrow?
It doesn’t matter how many ancestors there were, and we don’t know that anybody at the time believed in the number of ancestors. What matters is the historical evidence contradicting the story (which is overwhelming to the point that you are relying on a combination of miracles and nitpicking to counter it), and that many comparable stories and beliefs have been just as false.
You’re doing it again right now: I made a series of comments to illustrate how you are defining your terms narrowly, and you’ve zeroed in on this 1/25th thing, which came from your own post and not mine.
I agree that you have a pretty good argument (although I wouldn’t cal it “devastatingly compelling” as you repeatedly do). I also agree with you that the argument based on an absence of archaeological finds is a weak one. You can’t really prove a negative with archaeology.
Still, I will tell you why I am not convinced by your argument. You yourself agree that it may be that the evidence you are presenting may very well be fallible, and unreliable.
So why would God provide such a possibly-flimsy form of evidence and then expect you to follow arduous laws – for the next 3,300 years? You claim that the Egyptians didn’t record their defeats. You happen to be right about that. But couldn’t an all-powerful God have forced the Egyptians to record it? He sure could. So why didn’t God do that? Why doesn’t He show His face a little more often? Why doesn’t He provide more evidence?
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Yes, mass belief is evidence. How did these belief get off the ground? There are two general options: 1) The events happened, and the true events created the belief. 2) The events didn’t happen, and somehow that Jews accepted a false nationally-experienced, nationally-commemorated history. You should not choose option “2” to confidently – since nothing even remotely-similar to that has happened anywhere else, regarding the number of ancestor-witnesses, the number of days of miracles, and the number of burdensome commemorations. You don’t want to believe it; that’s why you don’t believe it.
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I am sorry for making you “sound like ignorant, bible-thumping fundies.” It’s sad that you look down so much at your ancestry. Shame on you for thinking that your ancestors, who as far back as 250 years ago all accepted the divinity of our history, as “ignorant.” You have decided to break of from that chain. Not because you are smart; not because your are well-educated; not because you enlightened. You want to break off from what all of your ancestors would have been willing to give up their lives for? Fine, go to Red Lobster. But, please, please, don’t call yourself Jewish.
Your argument is not a new one. Sam Harris practically makes a living off it. Carl Sagan once preached that “had God wanted to take away doubt about His existence he should have carved the Ten Commandments to the face of the moon.”
I will respond two ways (Nachmades also deals with the question in his commentary on Exodus and in a speech he gave one summer in Barcelona, titled, “The Torah of God is pure”).
First, I think it is an illegitimate Question because it attempts to psychoanalyze God. It says “surely, if God really exists, He would not leave any doubt about His existence.” But how, dearest, to you know what God’s mode of operation is? Did you even interview Him. I follow the evidence. And if there is evidence for His existence, I follow it.
Second, God could, indeed, have come down on Mount Sinai every ten years. Then we would be sure that God exists. However, we would be mere sacks of hay, just sitting around while God “does His thing.” We would have very little purpose in life; and would have nothing at all to do.
Instead, God came once. And he commanded that each generation teach the events to their children, and that they should commemorate the event forever. This way, we have a purpose in life, an Ultimate purpose: we are responsible that the Great event, when God showed His face, should never go lost.
Indeed, just imagine if the ancient Jews would have stopped commemorating this event. We would no longer have this greatest proof of the existence of God. God provided mere humans with this ultimate oppertunity, responsibility and privilege: You, My nation, you will be witnesses that I exist, forever.
Even if you say this 100 times - and you may have at this point - it does not make it true.
How did these belief get off the ground? There are two general options: 1) The
It’s happened many, many times. Every group has myths.
These are unimportant details, not evidence. Scientologists say Xenu murdered billions of beings 75 million years ago, although their souls survived. That’s an enormous number. Is it evidence, and is it more convincing than saying he killed ten people? No. It’s a detail in a story that is ridiculous from top to bottom.
I’ve lost track of how many times you’ve been asked to cite the claim that every Jew in history believed this story. Even the Bible does not make that claim.
It’s too bad you view this as an insult, but it’s accurate. People today are ignorant about plenty of things, but people who lived hundreds or thousands of years ago were ignorant about even more. That’s the primary reason religion exists.
Option 3. Ignorant, animal-sacrificing primitives made up a story about their grand history. Other ignorant, animal-sacrificing primitives start to believe the made up story. They teach their children that this is true. Fast forward a couple thousand years and ignorant, non-animal-sacrificing modern people still believe it. Because they don’t bother to reason rationally when it comes to their religion.
Not all Jews are so weak as to need to believe in children’s stories to justify their religion.
It is factual that you are ignoring reason and logic. It is factual that you are clinging to an argument that is childish on its face. Every single person who looks at this through the lens of reason knows that you are wrong.